
Tony Mancuso:
I'm is for 31, and I'm going all the June, June, June 9th, 2035 regular
planning commission meetings order.
Tony Mancuso:
We're back.
Tony Mancuso:
First up, we've got citizens to be heard.
Tony Mancuso:
I don't think I see anybody here who is here to make a comment on the real.
Robert O'Brien:
All right.
Tony Mancuso:
Super.
Tony Mancuso:
We can revisit that.
Aaron Lindberg:
Okay.
Tony Mancuso:
Again, just in case anyone else jumps on.
Tony Mancuso:
By the way, that ex parte communications and disclosures.
Tony Mancuso:
I have not had any.
Tony Mancuso:
For anyone else to.
Speaker 12:
Yep.
Tony Mancuso:
That's your.
Tony Mancuso:
That's your kid.
Tony Mancuso:
Good job.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Tony Mancuso:
So we should look at the moving on, approving the meeting minutes from Monday,
May 27th, I was absent at this meeting.
Tony Mancuso:
So, staying from.
Jerry Klaes:
I actually do have a correction.
Jerry Klaes:
My name is misspelled.
Tony Mancuso:
That has happened before, Jerry. We're sorry.
Jerry Klaes:
It's spelled incorrectly on page three, but it's correct on page four.
Jerry Klaes:
To be a yes.
Tony Mancuso:
We will make a note of that.
Tony Mancuso:
Sorry, Jerry.
Tony Mancuso:
A yes, not a yes.
Jerry Klaes:
Otherwise, I make a motion to approve the minutes.
Tony Mancuso:
And all in favor.
Tony Mancuso:
So adopted.
Robert O'Brien:
All right.
Tony Mancuso:
Planning staff report.
Tony Mancuso:
I see.
Tony Mancuso:
Thank you so much.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So with some changes in the planning department.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Machael is no longer.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
in the office.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So it's me.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And I have.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I'm Lisa.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I've recruited Lisa.
Tony Mancuso:
I'm so sorry.
Tony Mancuso:
I'm so sorry.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
There was an implosion of building as well.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So in fact, we have.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Combined forces to implode together.
Jerry Klaes:
Yes.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Aaron Lindberg:
Okay.
Jerry Klaes:
Yes.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
County building.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So she's a permit tech at the building department.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
As of today, she will be taking on sort of a.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Administrative role.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
In the department to help me.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
With initial changes or initial tracking of completeness for new applications.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And then hopefully we'll move her into a more permanent position
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
in the future.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
The planning building engineering department.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
We also have our new engineer here.
Speaker 12:
Nice to meet you.
Robert O'Brien:
That's great.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So, you know, things are looking up.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Did you want to introduce yourself?
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Sure.
Sean Yeates:
So my name is Sean.
Sean Yeates:
I've been in the department for a couple of years.
Sean Yeates:
Two decades of engineering experience.
Sean Yeates:
But thankfully.
Sean Yeates:
In the setting where it's always come to a meeting.
Sean Yeates:
For the meetings I'm talking about.
Mary Hofhine:
When I was in the department,
Mary Hofhine:
I was in the department for a couple of years,
Mary Hofhine:
I always gave him a little heart attack.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So we're really very, very excited to have him
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
jumping on board.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
We still have
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
contracts
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
for Engineering p{lanning and.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Services.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
to help.
Megan Schafer:
Tony Mancuso:
Thank you.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Thank you for having me.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Machael wanted me to.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Let you all know how much.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
How much she's learned from all of you.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
How much she's gone to see this.
Tony Mancuso:
Thank you.
Tony Mancuso:
Thank you.
Tony Mancuso:
And thanks for taking the time to be here.
Tony Mancuso:
Folks.
Tony Mancuso:
Really appreciate it.
Tony Mancuso:
Thank you.
Tony Mancuso:
It's showing up.
Tony Mancuso:
Evening meeting on Monday.
Tony Mancuso:
It's not.
Tony Mancuso:
But I'm looking forward to working with you more.
Tony Mancuso:
Next is Trish.
Tony Mancuso:
Mission update.
Tony Mancuso:
What do you got for us?
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
Very quick.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
You covered.
Robert O'Brien:
So that's.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
And just so you guys know, she moved.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
And her son is up there.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
So I can.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
Really nice.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
For her.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
But she sent a very nice email.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
To reach out to all of you.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
Update on staff.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
You've already mentioned it.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
I already.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
So it's great.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
You're looking at me.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
So it's really cool that you're here.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
We're excited about that.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
And then just an update.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
They have been doing some interviews for the planning director.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
That's kind of where that sits.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
So, and then on the June 3rd meeting.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
We just had two things that I think are relevant to you.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
We've already talked about this one.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
And then the other one was just the ordinance establishing grand It was this
non-convert conversion agreement.
Tony Mancuso:
That was.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
On the consent agenda.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
I pulled it off and just said, Chrissy kind of explain a little bit more.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
About that to the county commission.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
And again, we should see those things.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
You have some clarification on that.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
And then the other one was just the ordinance establishing grand Grand county's
tax sale procedure.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
And that passed unanimously.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
Basically.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
You know, if, if we have a situation where.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
Going into foreclosure.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
I've seen that.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
And so we had a situation recently where I think it was very close.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
It was rectified and the people were able to keep their homes.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
But we basically didn't have those procedures in place.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
I don't.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
Am I saying that.
Aaron Lindberg:
Okay.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
That's it for me.
Jerry Klaes:
Yes.
Aaron Lindberg:
Any idea if you're going to do more of this subcommittee.
Jerry Klaes:
Yes.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
Brian just reached out to me a couple of days ago.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
And I said, well, it'd be nice to get this.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
Solidified.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
Done.
Aaron Lindberg:
Okay.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
And then it seemed like the next thing on the, on the priority list that.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
Wasn't already kind of, because I know you guys are already working on the
dashboard as far as that.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
You know, Hasu et cetera and so on.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
Would be the a hundred K.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
And how.
Aaron Lindberg:
I don't know if this is something that we would like.
Aaron Lindberg:
Write a recommendation.
Aaron Lindberg:
Letter for.
Robert O'Brien:
That's great.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
But yeah, so that was the, to me, the next item on the list.
Aaron Lindberg:
Okay.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
I sent that back to Brian and Mike and said.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
It would be good to.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
Maybe have you.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
Also Kaitlin.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
I know that they had some, some, you know, Laura and Dylan do a lot of work.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
Outside of map home.
Aaron Lindberg:
Right.
Jerry Klaes:
So.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
Where would that money be best spent?
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Aaron Lindberg:
Okay.
Tony Mancuso:
Cool.
Tony Mancuso:
Follow up there.
Tony Mancuso:
Like where your head's at.
Tony Mancuso:
I would let staff.
Tony Mancuso:
Whoever.
Tony Mancuso:
You know, that there.
Tony Mancuso:
There's past legislative session.
Tony Mancuso:
There are some new rules.
Tony Mancuso:
About sub awards.
Tony Mancuso:
Of money in the state of Utah.
Tony Mancuso:
Whether it's direct award grant or competitive grant.
Tony Mancuso:
I wish I could cite the title.
Tony Mancuso:
Off the top of my head, but be familiar with those.
Tony Mancuso:
If we're going to be.
Tony Mancuso:
Referencing or recommending.
Tony Mancuso:
I don't know.
Tony Mancuso:
His first sense or words.
Tony Mancuso:
System.
Tony Mancuso:
But that new guidance.
Tony Mancuso:
There was something about how you solicited.
Tony Mancuso:
You can just give it to them.
Tony Mancuso:
Who can just take money versus.
Speaker 12:
Think about that.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I have to catch up on that.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Much lower level.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I have no idea.
Speaker 12:
Sounds good.
Tony Mancuso:
Thank you.
Jerry Klaes:
So.
Tony Mancuso:
Thank you so much.
Tony Mancuso:
Onto the next thing we do have one.
Tony Mancuso:
It's not a public hearing.
Tony Mancuso:
It's just an action item.
Tony Mancuso:
So we've been talking about this for a while.
Tony Mancuso:
We've punted it and it's been working with the task force.
Tony Mancuso:
And the subcommittee meetings.
Tony Mancuso:
And data.
Tony Mancuso:
As he's been making revisions.
Tony Mancuso:
And we have.
Tony Mancuso:
Finally.
Tony Mancuso:
A.
Tony Mancuso:
High density housing.
Tony Mancuso:
Overlay
Tony Mancuso:
draft language.
Tony Mancuso:
To chew on and consider.
Tony Mancuso:
Whether you send a favorable or unfavorable recommendation to the county
Tony Mancuso:
The favorable.
Tony Mancuso:
We did.
Tony Mancuso:
Negotiate is a heavy word, but we did.
Tony Mancuso:
We did ask the county commission to be patient with us while we worked through
this language.
Tony Mancuso:
I would like to try.
Robert O'Brien:
And.
Tony Mancuso:
Recommend a....
Tony Mancuso:
Or not, but make a determination on this draft.
Jerry Klaes:
So.
Tony Mancuso:
I'm going to try my best to just keep it.
Tony Mancuso:
Focused on the language of the ordinance as it's written.
Tony Mancuso:
And a couple of ground rules before we just dive in and start raising each
other's hands.
Tony Mancuso:
This has been.
Tony Mancuso:
A lot.
Tony Mancuso:
And if.
Tony Mancuso:
This is going to happen a lot with me.
Tony Mancuso:
If we read something and I don't understand why it reads like that.
Tony Mancuso:
Nine out of 10 odds are that someone else does.
Tony Mancuso:
I don't know.
Tony Mancuso:
It's like that.
Tony Mancuso:
Like that on purpose.
Tony Mancuso:
Remembering that.
Tony Mancuso:
Staff folks on the task force.
Tony Mancuso:
They've been working really hard.
Tony Mancuso:
They've turned it inside out.
Jerry Klaes:
So.
Tony Mancuso:
With that.
Tony Mancuso:
Copy of the draft.
Tony Mancuso:
I think I hope.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
I'm sorry.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I'm sorry that the ones that I passed out.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
As green.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Maybe it's just.
Tony Mancuso:
It's.
Tony Mancuso:
Again, with a vote.
Megan Schafer:
If anyone wants to o look at this one with the green,
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Megan Schafer:
I'm happy to share.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Speaker 13:
This is pretty standard Microsoft.
Aaron Lindberg:
Right.
Aaron Lindberg:
Right.
Jerry Klaes:
So.
Speaker 13:
Greens are added language.
Speaker 13:
Strike-throughs are deleted language.
Speaker 13:
And there's.
Speaker 13:
That's pretty much it.
Tony Mancuso:
Does anybody want to.
Tony Mancuso:
You know, Jump in with their initial thoughts.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Aaron Lindberg:
I was wondering.
Aaron Lindberg:
Was there any more.
Aaron Lindberg:
public comment that came in?
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Really quickly.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So that for, for focuses.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
The areas that were.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Directed to me in the last meeting, what I took from it-
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
"The local area" -
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
We need to decide which one.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
To recommend.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
To push forward.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And then we spent most of our time on this.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
50%.
Jerry Klaes:
So.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I left the one that I had before.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I created an alternative.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And I still stand by that language.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I think that there's confusion on what I meant.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And then I did an alternative one that was the one that I think people think
that I meant.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And then there's a number of alternatives.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Creating that in the alternatively.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And then there's also an alternative
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
for just removing ownership.
Aaron Lindberg:
And then.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
another alternative is to just keep the language as it is.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
In the original ordinance.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And recommend.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Approval with that, with the other changes.
Tony Mancuso:
And for additional clarification, Chrissy.
Tony Mancuso:
This draft.
Tony Mancuso:
Has not yet been approved.
Tony Mancuso:
By Attorney Stocks.
Tony Mancuso:
So it has not seen legally yet.
Tony Mancuso:
And it has, and it will.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So it went through initial legal.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
With Steven.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
He did make some recommendations and those were incorporated.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
The disability.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Definition that I added.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
There was some, you know, This will go through a different sort of legal
review.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Once we get your, which ones you want.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
But it's been.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Reviewed.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Except for the pieces that we need to review that you guys.
Tony Mancuso:
Is that it is more important at this stage.
Tony Mancuso:
To focus on the spirit of the text and not the form.
Tony Mancuso:
Exactly.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
There's a, you know, a misspelling or something about it.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
The, you know, the numbering will be corrected.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So let's not focus on that.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
You guys haven't been doing that.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So that's fine.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
One thing.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Other thing I wanted to bring up.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
The deed restriction that I spoke about last.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And I didn't incorporate this time.
Jerry Klaes:
So.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
That deed restriction is, is similar to.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It's similar to.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
An SIA.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It would be, it would go through, it will be done in the attorney's office.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And only in the attorney's office.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It's not part of the land use code.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It won't be part of the land use code.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It's just a what the deed restriction would look like.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I gave it to you guys just so you could see.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
What it, you know, what it would do, how it would.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Prevent us from having to.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
have to be able to report a bunch of the final plats with 57 signatures on it.
Jerry Klaes:
So.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
But though that deed restriction is just a legal contract that would be done.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
In the county attorney's office with the county attorney and isn't the land use
code allows is what allows us to enter into that.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
That's why it's mentioned.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
But the actual deed restrictions that I.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Presented to us last time.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It's not part of the land use code.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It's just a county attorney
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
document that
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
he will deal with
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
owners that come.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And that language would be.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It's going to be mostly the same, but it's going to be based off what we look
at here.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So there will never be anything in there.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
That's not agreed to by the applicant because it is independently.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
agreed to by the applicant.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And allow.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
To do that.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Question.
Mary Hofhine:
Those change with each application, correct?
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Not necessarily.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Largely the same.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So there's language in here that talks about if we can decide to incorporate
this 50% language.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
The deed restriction would include
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Some of the stuff on ownership
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And so people varied.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
A little bit.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
based on
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Whether it's owner-occupied
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Or.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Owner owned by someone in Salt Lake and rented to them.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So those will change.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
A little between
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
They're in.
Robert O'Brien:
There were questions, not last week, but the.
Robert O'Brien:
Meeting before.
Robert O'Brien:
What about.
Robert O'Brien:
Foreclosures.
Robert O'Brien:
Getting loans.
Tony Mancuso:
Is that.
Robert O'Brien:
How is that cleaned up?
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So the, if you look at the language about.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Let me give you a section.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Legal action.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
That has all been changed.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
To address Rarni's comments.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Instead of creating separately.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I just removed.
Jerry Klaes:
So.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It speaks to seeking.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Or.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
I'm sorry.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
With injunctions, including without limitations.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Property in violation of this section.
Jerry Klaes:
What's that?
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It's a four seven 11.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
How do they institute any appropriate legal action or proceeding necessary to
ensure compliance with this session?
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Damages specific performance.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Injunctions, including without limitations.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Criminal citations for fraud or misrepresentations.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And injunctions, including without limitation and injunction requiring eviction
of the occupant.
Jerry Klaes:
So.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Because I incorporated that eviction language with a.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Injunction.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I'm hoping that that would.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
That will.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I'm hoping that that will.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Clear up.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Because it would be an injunction is something that is issued by a judge.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It's not something that the county can do without going to court.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And it's just allows us to.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I like that.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So, and I think that that.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
For any of her concerns.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And then anything that was on the deed restriction, like I said, would be done
as a voluntary agreement for the attorney's office.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
they could also have an attorney there to negotiate those terms.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I don't need to address those at all.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And it's my after reviewing.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
All the documents Rarni sent me that this current version.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I'm not a lender, but.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I feel like I would.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I feel like I would be able to address all of the concerns that.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
With the date restriction.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
With this legal action language that he was concerned with.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
They've talked about before I talked about foreclosure and removing a renter
and.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
A bunch of stuff.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
This just talks about.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
We can take you to court and ask for all of these things, including attorney
space.
Tony Mancuso:
I'm going to go with the low hanging fruit.
Tony Mancuso:
Get this out of the way.
Tony Mancuso:
Thank you.
Tony Mancuso:
Thanks for the progress.
Tony Mancuso:
I think.
Tony Mancuso:
Regarding the definition of local area.
Tony Mancuso:
We got a pretty clear.
Tony Mancuso:
That's the workshop that we had on.
Tony Mancuso:
Well, six weeks ago.
Tony Mancuso:
That.
Tony Mancuso:
The 75 mile radius was pretty well.
Tony Mancuso:
Or all the parties involved.
Tony Mancuso:
I don't see a problem with it one way or the other.
Tony Mancuso:
The reality is that either of those definitions, well encompass all of the
parcels that this school.
Jerry Klaes:
So.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Jerry Klaes:
Go ahead.
Jerry Klaes:
I was just going to mention.
Jerry Klaes:
We had comments from Aaron and Megan.
Jerry Klaes:
In the last meeting too, in support of that.
Jerry Klaes:
But they both brought up really good.
Robert O'Brien:
And I would still say.
Robert O'Brien:
I don't like it.
Robert O'Brien:
I don't like it at all.
Robert O'Brien:
I think the spirit of the HDA.
Robert O'Brien:
Was for.
Robert O'Brien:
Local.
Robert O'Brien:
I'll think.
Robert O'Brien:
Practically employed households.
Robert O'Brien:
And I'm really not convinced that let's say somebody who lives in green river.
Robert O'Brien:
Monticello.
Robert O'Brien:
Who works there.
Robert O'Brien:
Should get credit so they can have the house tier.
Robert O'Brien:
I just don't think that's.
Robert O'Brien:
What the HDA show.
Robert O'Brien:
Was for, I thought.
Robert O'Brien:
Was for actively employed households.
Robert O'Brien:
For people who live here.
Robert O'Brien:
I understand the desire.
Robert O'Brien:
To live here.
Tony Mancuso:
But.
Robert O'Brien:
Commute from Monticello.
Robert O'Brien:
To work here and get.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
I'm sorry.
Robert O'Brien:
To work in Monticello when you're here.
Robert O'Brien:
And get credit for being a local worker.
Robert O'Brien:
I don't think it makes sense.
Laura Long:
I lean a little bit towards that.
Laura Long:
I feel like it's more community focused.
Laura Long:
You're living and working here.
Speaker 13:
Give me a moment.
Tony Mancuso:
So we're talking about the definition of local area.
Robert O'Brien:
And I think Tony, most of the language on it is.
Robert O'Brien:
About where people.
Robert O'Brien:
Do you work in the local area?
Robert O'Brien:
That would get you.
Tony Mancuso:
On page one.
Tony Mancuso:
It says.
Tony Mancuso:
That your business serves.
Tony Mancuso:
Area.
Tony Mancuso:
For example.
Tony Mancuso:
A firm in Monticello that makes doorknobs and sell doorknobs.
Tony Mancuso:
They serve the local area.
Tony Mancuso:
So it's.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Megan Schafer:
The company he works for.
Tony Mancuso:
I was going to use red mechanical, but then I went with doorknobs.
Tony Mancuso:
So that's like, let's remember this.
Tony Mancuso:
We're not drawing a line.
Tony Mancuso:
Around.
Tony Mancuso:
Where this rule takes effect.
Tony Mancuso:
We're drawing a line around.
Laura Long:
How do you regulate that though?
Tony Mancuso:
I mean, let's not go down.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Tony Mancuso:
How do you regulate any of this?
Tony Mancuso:
These are regulations.
Tony Mancuso:
I think the point.
Tony Mancuso:
As I understand it talking.
Tony Mancuso:
From listening to commissioner Martinez.
Tony Mancuso:
At our workshop.
Tony Mancuso:
It's like a 75 mile radius things.
Tony Mancuso:
Specifically intended to get to.
Tony Mancuso:
Thompson.
Robert O'Brien:
And.
Tony Mancuso:
Castle Valley.
Robert O'Brien:
And.
Tony Mancuso:
That's just.
Tony Mancuso:
Communities just outside our bubble and that it's just.
Tony Mancuso:
Grand county is bigger than just.
Tony Mancuso:
You know, it's the way I understood it.
Robert O'Brien:
But this.
Robert O'Brien:
This takes us outside of.
Robert O'Brien:
The change that was made.
Robert O'Brien:
After the HDA show was approved was to include the 84, five, three, two.
Robert O'Brien:
And the reason was.
Robert O'Brien:
There are people.
Robert O'Brien:
Just below grand county's border.
Robert O'Brien:
Which are really are locals.
Robert O'Brien:
In that area of Spanish Valley.
Robert O'Brien:
And that's pretty much where.
Robert O'Brien:
The 84, five, three, two.
Robert O'Brien:
It's going to get you.
Robert O'Brien:
But to go over 75 miles away.
Robert O'Brien:
It takes you into.
Robert O'Brien:
At least two different counties.
Robert O'Brien:
Now I know.
Robert O'Brien:
I know that.
Robert O'Brien:
That's possible.
Robert O'Brien:
You know, the political thing might be to say, well, Kind of commission's going
to do it anyway.
Robert O'Brien:
That's possible.
Robert O'Brien:
That's possible.
Robert O'Brien:
But from my standpoint.
Robert O'Brien:
This is not the way they should go and they can change it if they want to.
Robert O'Brien:
But I hope they consider this.
Aaron Lindberg:
Okay.
Tony Mancuso:
Anybody else.
Jerry Klaes:
Well, I guess the only comment I've got is.
Jerry Klaes:
I was leaning along the same lines as you and then.
Jerry Klaes:
Aaron brought up.
Jerry Klaes:
Where you're based and where you do most of the work.
Tony Mancuso:
It's not.
Jerry Klaes:
It's not that much there.
Jerry Klaes:
A service.
Tony Mancuso:
I mean, it's.
Jerry Klaes:
Mechanical.
Jerry Klaes:
So I think there are.
Jerry Klaes:
There is good reason to extend that.
Jerry Klaes:
In fact, they're actually serving this community.
Jerry Klaes:
Doing it.
Robert O'Brien:
I mean, it's just this does this.
Robert O'Brien:
And I had now.
Robert O'Brien:
I would have to go back and read it.
Robert O'Brien:
Even more closely.
Robert O'Brien:
It would suggest.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Robert O'Brien:
First section.
Tony Mancuso:
The very, this local area definition is specifically directed at where an
applicant's employer works.
Tony Mancuso:
We're talking about the definition of app-employed household.
Tony Mancuso:
This is not like a where I live thing.
Tony Mancuso:
It's a what area does my employer serve thing.
Tony Mancuso:
It's really myopic and granular.
Tony Mancuso:
And these codes will not have any effect in Lake River, that's in County
County.
Tony Mancuso:
They won't have any effect in Spanish Valley, that's in San Juan County.
Tony Mancuso:
I mean, our land use code, I started off by saying these codes will only affect
the very small, like all the parcels are already well contained within
establishments.
Robert O'Brien:
I don't want to say on this local area stuff, if we look at 4.7.3 definition of
local employment, it goes, you know, rattles on, but the very last sentence, it
benefits the person's physical presence within the boundary of the local area.
Robert O'Brien:
So it does mean if I'm benefiting Monticello.
Tony Mancuso:
I would also just like to point out that 84532 is a larger than 75 mile radius
zip code.
Tony Mancuso:
So this is like.
Robert O'Brien:
I don't believe so when I looked it up on these.
Robert O'Brien:
So I think it just goes down into Spanish Valley.
Robert O'Brien:
If you're saying I believe that's right.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Well, because this would be both.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It would be within the 84532 zip code, or it's within the 75 mile radius, which
means that as long as you're in, like if you're in Grand County, no matter where
you're at in Grand County, that's the local area.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
The 75 mile was pulled from the procurement policy.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It extends down, I believe, to Blanding.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yes, extends down to Blanding.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And I don't know if it extends over in Colorado.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
I took this over, it came from 75, and I made that on the procurement plan was
as we took the actually how far out in the county to go.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
So if you took the northern boundary, right, it would stretch, you know, way
out, out, but it would only be about 75 miles.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
So that's where that came from.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
Now, keeping that inside the county, it also has to be in the state of Utah.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
So that does exclude Grand Junction.
Tony Mancuso:
So that's to my point, I mean, like overlays on top of overlays.
Tony Mancuso:
This is the easy one to answer.
Tony Mancuso:
Let's remember that.
Aaron Lindberg:
Oh, he's arguing it is like, this keeps the arrows pointing in towards Moab.
Aaron Lindberg:
And the kind of idea of that was, you know, this we're giving up density so
that the Grand County can serve itself.
Aaron Lindberg:
The question is, is like, in my mind, like with my, the company I work for,
like, I thought about that.
Aaron Lindberg:
It is covered because it does service this area.
Aaron Lindberg:
So even though it is in Blanding, it would be available then.
Aaron Lindberg:
So, you know, the question is, is it fair?
Aaron Lindberg:
Let's say we had a county engineer that was working here.
Aaron Lindberg:
He moves here and then he takes a job down in Monticello again, but stays in
Moab.
Aaron Lindberg:
And so, like, is that fair to, there's parts of this thing where I'm like, hey,
you're retired.
Aaron Lindberg:
You get to stay in here.
Aaron Lindberg:
Is it like, you're a part of the community.
Aaron Lindberg:
You took a job out in like locally, according to this, now you're kicked down.
Aaron Lindberg:
That is my dilemma with this.
Aaron Lindberg:
I'm like, do you on house somebody for taking a job kind of in our local area?
Aaron Lindberg:
Like I don't, I don't get that.
Tony Mancuso:
You don't just not have someone.
Aaron Lindberg:
Well, they become not qualified because they're no longer, they're no longer
locally employed.
Robert O'Brien:
Only if they give up their renting or they sell their house.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Speaker 12:
You have to qualify.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Aaron Lindberg:
So you can own a place.
Aaron Lindberg:
Like if under Bobsleigh, you can own a place.
Aaron Lindberg:
I take a job in Monticello.
Aaron Lindberg:
I'm still qualified.
Speaker 12:
Yep.
Jerry Klaes:
I guess.
Jerry Klaes:
I don't know how many of you ever hit a 75.
Jerry Klaes:
But I actually did that.
Jerry Klaes:
It's not something that I wish.
Tony Mancuso:
I don't know.
Jerry Klaes:
I mean, I, I guess there are probably people who are serving this area that
they live 75 miles away.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Aaron Lindberg:
I worked with five guys that live in.
Aaron Lindberg:
And they tried every day.
Jerry Klaes:
It would, I would think.
Jerry Klaes:
If we think people that are living in planning.
Jerry Klaes:
And keep working and planning every day.
Jerry Klaes:
I would think that would be.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Jerry Klaes:
I think that's a bit of a stretch.
Jerry Klaes:
I think I'm guessing what we're going to get are people that are actually
spending most of their time.
Robert O'Brien:
And.
Tony Mancuso:
I would like to remember.
Tony Mancuso:
The reason I.
Tony Mancuso:
Lean in favor of the 75 mile radius.
Tony Mancuso:
Language rather than not including that number.
Tony Mancuso:
Is that there are very little.
Tony Mancuso:
There are very little.
Tony Mancuso:
Community service industries.
Tony Mancuso:
In Boab.
Tony Mancuso:
It's not.
Aaron Lindberg:
Right.
Tony Mancuso:
There aren't a lot of light industry.
Tony Mancuso:
There aren't a lot of manufacturing.
Tony Mancuso:
There's not a lot of economic diversity.
Tony Mancuso:
In this town.
Tony Mancuso:
And we're talking about where the local area is as it is.
Tony Mancuso:
As it applies to a person's place of employment.
Tony Mancuso:
So we cast a much wider net.
Tony Mancuso:
With a lot more different types.
Tony Mancuso:
Of employment.
Tony Mancuso:
If we include a larger area.
Tony Mancuso:
That's the, my thing.
Tony Mancuso:
It's like, this isn't where these.
Tony Mancuso:
That is not a radius wherein these rules will apply.
Tony Mancuso:
This is not to say that.
Tony Mancuso:
You're going to get high density.
Tony Mancuso:
Anywhere within a 75 mile radius, right?
Tony Mancuso:
This is to say that a person can work somewhere 75 miles away.
Jerry Klaes:
So.
Tony Mancuso:
Now.
Tony Mancuso:
Unless you're a problem.
Tony Mancuso:
Where are you working?
Tony Mancuso:
That's 76 miles away.
Aaron Lindberg:
Right.
Tony Mancuso:
Just my thoughts.
Megan Schafer:
My other thought to that too, is people who are commuting to work here.
Megan Schafer:
We have a couple who's been driving from new club for three years.
Megan Schafer:
Because there's no available jobs with the wages.
Megan Schafer:
That we it's cheaper for them to commute and live in another state.
Robert O'Brien:
And.
Megan Schafer:
If people are living here, shopping here.
Megan Schafer:
Doing all of their day-to-day things here.
Megan Schafer:
The likelihood of them.
Megan Schafer:
Working in Monticello.
Megan Schafer:
It's not that high.
Megan Schafer:
As someone who tried to live here and work in Monticello in an effort to move
back home.
Tony Mancuso:
It wasn't.
Megan Schafer:
I mean, when I say it's not practical.
Megan Schafer:
It was like a $10 an hour difference.
Megan Schafer:
Because the economy is so much different.
Megan Schafer:
And I think that's why we have so many people from blending.
Megan Schafer:
Monument Valley bluff Monticello.
Megan Schafer:
Traveling to work here.
Megan Schafer:
And if we're looking at.
Megan Schafer:
New housing for primary residential occupancy by actively employed households.
Megan Schafer:
These are people who are already working here.
Megan Schafer:
Who are making the effort to.
Megan Schafer:
We should be making it.
Megan Schafer:
Accessible for them to actually establish housing here.
Megan Schafer:
And then we're bringing people into the community.
Megan Schafer:
On top of that.
Robert O'Brien:
And.
Robert O'Brien:
Those are the people who are absolutely eligible for housing.
Robert O'Brien:
Because they are working here.
Robert O'Brien:
So that's.
Robert O'Brien:
That's an open gate for them.
Robert O'Brien:
To get housing.
Robert O'Brien:
Under the proposal I would make.
Robert O'Brien:
That's fine.
Robert O'Brien:
That's great.
Robert O'Brien:
They can do that.
Robert O'Brien:
What they can't be doing is working in Monticello.
Robert O'Brien:
And say, you know, I've, I've, I've now served with the local area because I'm
working down in Monticello.
Robert O'Brien:
So I'm eligible for housing here.
Robert O'Brien:
And the only final point I'll make is.
Robert O'Brien:
It is.
Robert O'Brien:
Citizens of this area.
Robert O'Brien:
Who are.
Robert O'Brien:
Taking on the higher density.
Robert O'Brien:
Which is.
Robert O'Brien:
It is a burden.
Robert O'Brien:
And I think it ought to be then for people who are locally.
Robert O'Brien:
Can't find housing who are working here.
Robert O'Brien:
So serving this community.
Tony Mancuso:
Let's run the hypotheticals.
Aaron Lindberg:
Right.
Tony Mancuso:
How about.
Tony Mancuso:
A person who.
Tony Mancuso:
Works for.
Tony Mancuso:
A federal agency, like the national park service or the BLM.
Tony Mancuso:
Who has multiple field stations and doesn't exactly get to choose.
Tony Mancuso:
Always where they're assigned.
Tony Mancuso:
So the Canyon country district.
Tony Mancuso:
Is superior to.
Tony Mancuso:
I'll send them on a field.
Tony Mancuso:
Or something that's just like laterally moved.
Tony Mancuso:
From the lab to Monticello.
Aaron Lindberg:
Right.
Tony Mancuso:
That was.
Tony Mancuso:
They were really talking about that.
Tony Mancuso:
I know a couple of people.
Tony Mancuso:
Because they can do that.
Tony Mancuso:
I mean, we're a pretty big agency town.
Tony Mancuso:
It just like.
Tony Mancuso:
I just think that, you know, for a lot of people.
Tony Mancuso:
Working in Monticello does provide.
Tony Mancuso:
For example, working in green river.
Tony Mancuso:
Does provide.
Tony Mancuso:
Like.
Tony Mancuso:
That's it here too.
Tony Mancuso:
I mean, it's.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It's just.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It's just.
Tony Mancuso:
Keeping in like.
Tony Mancuso:
Consistent rationale.
Tony Mancuso:
With the overall conversation, which is like, you know, People come to this
region, not to this city.
Tony Mancuso:
The trail ambassador thing, all the.
Tony Mancuso:
You know, which lands are going to be a sacrifice.
Tony Mancuso:
So which lands are.
Robert O'Brien:
You know, You know, Tony and I would also say.
Robert O'Brien:
If actually one wanted to say a place that serves this community.
Robert O'Brien:
It'd be grand junction.
Robert O'Brien:
People go over there and shop.
Robert O'Brien:
Hospital there.
Robert O'Brien:
Et cetera.
Robert O'Brien:
I mean, I don't know where the boundaries.
Robert O'Brien:
It should be, but I, you know, I'll stand by.
Robert O'Brien:
The boundaries.
Robert O'Brien:
I'm for.
Robert O'Brien:
You know, I don't know where the boundaries are and, you know, maybe, maybe
we'll have to take a little.
Robert O'Brien:
Vote on it.
Robert O'Brien:
Whatever you call it.
Robert O'Brien:
Struggle.
Robert O'Brien:
On it.
Robert O'Brien:
See where people.
Robert O'Brien:
All right.
Tony Mancuso:
No, I'm in the interest of.
Tony Mancuso:
Just keeping the conversation moving along.
Tony Mancuso:
Let's do a.
Aaron Lindberg:
Okay.
Tony Mancuso:
Real quick on whether or not we like.
Tony Mancuso:
75 Mile alternative or just the county boundary and the zip code.
Tony Mancuso:
As it pertains to the definition of local area.
Tony Mancuso:
Which addresses.
Tony Mancuso:
Point.
Tony Mancuso:
Point.
Tony Mancuso:
That was in favor of.
Tony Mancuso:
75 Mile.
Tony Mancuso:
I don't know.
Jerry Klaes:
Sorry.
Tony Mancuso:
Three.
Tony Mancuso:
Five.
Tony Mancuso:
Five, two.
Robert O'Brien:
How many are going to abstain, but yeah, I think it's five too.
Tony Mancuso:
Those in favor of the other one.
Tony Mancuso:
For the record.
Aaron Lindberg:
I mean, it's definitely appealing.
Aaron Lindberg:
That's a tough one.
Aaron Lindberg:
For me, I see all your points.
Aaron Lindberg:
Okay.
Aaron Lindberg:
Keeping the arrows pointed in.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Tony Mancuso:
Here we go.
Tony Mancuso:
The next one.
Tony Mancuso:
Do we want to get into something?
Tony Mancuso:
I see.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
That's the sticking point.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
That's the one that.
Tony Mancuso:
It's the large block of highlight.
Tony Mancuso:
I don't know.
Tony Mancuso:
What is that?
Tony Mancuso:
Anyone.
Robert O'Brien:
Can I ask you a question?
Jerry Klaes:
Yes.
Robert O'Brien:
It's really a question.
Robert O'Brien:
I've got it down here somewhere.
Robert O'Brien:
So forth.
Robert O'Brien:
So what does this 50%?
Robert O'Brien:
Rule entail?
Robert O'Brien:
This thing.
Robert O'Brien:
Some HOAs say that 50% of the folks.
Robert O'Brien:
Have to be permanently.
Robert O'Brien:
Permanent residents.
Robert O'Brien:
Why we're writing this.
Robert O'Brien:
Some ways I'm asking.
Robert O'Brien:
Why are we writing this special thing for HOAs rather than saying something
like.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Well, so there's alternatives.
Jerry Klaes:
Yes.
Aaron Lindberg:
Okay.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So my original one.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
My original.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So at the, at the workshop that happened a month ago.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It was open it up.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So this was.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Just a compromise to that.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So, because.
Jerry Klaes:
So.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
50% of.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Condos require 50% local or occupancy.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And let's not get caught in the weeds here.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I'm just explaining why.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So the 50% came from.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
A number that's associated with condos.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So I was like, well, 50% of them already have to be.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Owner occupied.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So the HOA would control that and it would be outside of the county's sort of.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Least power because it would be controlled by the HOA.
Jerry Klaes:
So.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
People are getting hung up on the exception.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
The whole thing would be exempt.
Jerry Klaes:
Yes.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Because the HOA would be policing themselves.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And requiring 50% of their occupants to be the owner occupied by our
definitions within their own HOA.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So that's the only way that this would be.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Allowed.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And it would be by an agreement.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
The.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And so that's where the language came from.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And then people kind of liked it and kind of didn't, and then they hated the
way I wrote it.
Jerry Klaes:
So.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I wrote it again to not incorporate HOAs at all.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Just.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
To allow 50%.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
To be occupied.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
To be.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Purchased.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
By outside of local area people.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
While the qualified household requirements for occupancy remained the same.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And that's what this new alternative that's listed as triple I.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It's supposed to do.
Jerry Klaes:
It's supposed to be.
Jerry Klaes:
It's supposed to be.
Jerry Klaes:
Your alternative.
Jerry Klaes:
Well, that makes a lot more sense to me.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Robert O'Brien:
And I'm a little dance.
Robert O'Brien:
So help me out.
Robert O'Brien:
Help me out on this one.
Robert O'Brien:
You agreed to quickly.
Robert O'Brien:
What.
Robert O'Brien:
I saw.
Robert O'Brien:
I'm wondering, I guess they have to make this requirement.
Robert O'Brien:
What's wrong with saying.
Robert O'Brien:
It's it's their business.
Robert O'Brien:
I guess some of these might be rental units, right?
Robert O'Brien:
That's the problem.
Robert O'Brien:
So it's their, it's their problem.
Tony Mancuso:
That.
Robert O'Brien:
80%.
Robert O'Brien:
What if it was written 80% of the.
Robert O'Brien:
Permanent residents had to be qualified.
Robert O'Brien:
20% not.
Robert O'Brien:
They have to worry about having half of it.
Robert O'Brien:
And then the rentals 80, 20 also.
Robert O'Brien:
Wouldn't that.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
That's.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I'm understanding what you're saying.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
That's currently the way that the.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
HCHO ordinance is ready.
Jerry Klaes:
Yes.
Jerry Klaes:
Yes.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And you guys, and that is one of your alternatives.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
If that's what you guys want.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Keep it as it is.
Robert O'Brien:
So that's what yours does at this point.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
No, mine.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
I'm sorry.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
I'm sorry.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Allows 50% of the.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
HCHO units to be owned.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Outside of.
Robert O'Brien:
80 20.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
20 was the deed restriction and that will remain.
Robert O'Brien:
So I maybe I wouldn't.
Robert O'Brien:
I may not have clearly.
Robert O'Brien:
Stated it because the version I just gave.
Robert O'Brien:
Was that 80% of the permanent.
Robert O'Brien:
Had to be.
Robert O'Brien:
Qualified owners.
Robert O'Brien:
Oh, and stuff.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Robert O'Brien:
So why not?
Robert O'Brien:
80% of the permanent units.
Robert O'Brien:
Have to be.
Robert O'Brien:
And 80% of the.
Robert O'Brien:
Rental units have to be.
Robert O'Brien:
Then they'd be just like everybody else.
Robert O'Brien:
Except you've been able to.
Robert O'Brien:
You say, well, some are being rented.
Robert O'Brien:
So 80% should be.
Robert O'Brien:
So 80% of the permanent units have to be.
Robert O'Brien:
Some are being owned.
Robert O'Brien:
So 80% should be because that's the.
Robert O'Brien:
Four fifths.
Robert O'Brien:
Split that.
Robert O'Brien:
The HCHO does.
Jerry Klaes:
I don't know what you're saying.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Jerry Klaes:
So.
Robert O'Brien:
It basically is saying.
Robert O'Brien:
I don't know what the, you know, the problems of the HCHO is they want to have.
Robert O'Brien:
50% have to be.
Robert O'Brien:
Permanent occupants.
Aaron Lindberg:
Right.
Robert O'Brien:
You can.
Robert O'Brien:
You can.
Robert O'Brien:
You can.
Robert O'Brien:
You can do that by.
Robert O'Brien:
By saying.
Robert O'Brien:
80%.
Robert O'Brien:
Have to be qualified.
Robert O'Brien:
Owners.
Robert O'Brien:
Property.
Tony Mancuso:
20%.
Tony Mancuso:
I think that's.
Tony Mancuso:
That's what the.
Tony Mancuso:
Like.
Tony Mancuso:
2018 HCHO.
Tony Mancuso:
That's what we've already got.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Robert O'Brien:
That's what.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So only 20%.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Currently can be.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Can be bought.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Purchased.
Speaker 12:
Yep.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And those can be lived in by anybody.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
They have to be rented for 30 days.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
They can't be overnight, but yeah.
Robert O'Brien:
So what's wrong with that?
Robert O'Brien:
How does that not.
Robert O'Brien:
Meet the needs of HOAs.
Tony Mancuso:
I must assume.
Tony Mancuso:
I must assume.
Tony Mancuso:
That we have scales from 80, 20 to 50, 50.
Tony Mancuso:
After lengthy.
Tony Mancuso:
Deliberation and the housing task force.
Robert O'Brien:
And.
Tony Mancuso:
I don't know.
Tony Mancuso:
You attended a few of them.
Tony Mancuso:
Maybe.
Tony Mancuso:
Throw me a life jacket here.
Tony Mancuso:
Tell me how the conversation went when we talked about going from 80, 20 to 50,
50.
Aaron Lindberg:
Well, I mean, I mean, I kind of said this before.
Aaron Lindberg:
We kind of.
Aaron Lindberg:
I would kind of ask, like, that's both of our commissioners.
Aaron Lindberg:
Kind of the opposing viewpoints.
Aaron Lindberg:
On this because.
Aaron Lindberg:
I think, you know, there's.
Aaron Lindberg:
Room for, you know, there's one poll.
Aaron Lindberg:
That's like.
Aaron Lindberg:
No, no changes.
Aaron Lindberg:
And there's people.
Aaron Lindberg:
I'm planning commissioner like that.
Aaron Lindberg:
Then there's another side.
Aaron Lindberg:
That's like, you know, Let's strip all restrictions.
Aaron Lindberg:
And I think there's, to me, there's.
Aaron Lindberg:
Arguments for.
Aaron Lindberg:
Foreign against that.
Aaron Lindberg:
But one of the things I would like to say to this body.
Aaron Lindberg:
Is I would really, if we could.
Aaron Lindberg:
Give something that would, I would hope.
Aaron Lindberg:
You know, I would hope that the commission would vote passes by a seven, seven
vote.
Aaron Lindberg:
For the county commission.
Aaron Lindberg:
On that.
Aaron Lindberg:
And I'd like to see, like, you know, Ask.
Aaron Lindberg:
You know, what, what.
Aaron Lindberg:
What we can do.
Aaron Lindberg:
That was like.
Aaron Lindberg:
Gives a little to this side takes a little from that side and vice versa on
that.
Robert O'Brien:
And.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Aaron Lindberg:
That's kind of where I'm at because, you know, we can, we can pass something
like, you know, I think if we did it right now, it would just be like, yeah, no
changes.
Aaron Lindberg:
And then we have a commission that we'll just go over our head.
Aaron Lindberg:
And that makes the commission look bad, makes us look bad.
Aaron Lindberg:
I would like to actually have kind of a.
Aaron Lindberg:
A thing with that to see where we went.
Aaron Lindberg:
But that's my two cents about it.
Aaron Lindberg:
Okay.
Jerry Klaes:
And to your point though, And these.
Jerry Klaes:
This section here.
Jerry Klaes:
All it deals with.
Jerry Klaes:
It's a woman.
Jerry Klaes:
With.
Jerry Klaes:
80% of them being qualified occupants or 10% being qualified.
Jerry Klaes:
There is.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
Clarification.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
You guys are trying to look.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
You know, 80% would still need to be owned by people who live here.
Aaron Lindberg:
Right.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
I mean, to own them, but they would.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
But they could rent them to people that lived.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
What we're talking about here.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
It's a separate issue.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
So what we're trying to do is that if I have those 80 units left over.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
I could allow someone else from outside of grand county.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
To buy that unit, but he would still have to rent that unit.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
To people in grand county.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
They won't have to be qualified.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
Renters.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
Yeah, that's ownership.
Aaron Lindberg:
Right.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
Ownership.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
So, so we're, we're allowing here.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
So we're allowing outside investors to.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
We're going to banter.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
It doesn't help with the form.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
Here's what I'm going to say.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
And I'm going to say this to you too, Brian.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
This isn't, we're going to banter this in a couple of weeks.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
So I don't feel like the two of us should be saying anything.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
I'm saying that to you also, Brian.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
Unless somebody asks us a question, I think you guys really need to banter
this.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
I agree with you though, Aaron.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
So I think some compromise, hopefully.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
We'll we'll send forward.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
Something that hopefully will be passed.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
That would be great.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
I don't want to compromise, but hopefully.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
Those that just want to give it away to outside investors.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
If there is some compromise that hopefully they would see that.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
There was some ownership.
Laura Long:
Ownership is wealth.
Aaron Lindberg:
Right.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
I don't want to compromise, but I think if we need to keep our mouth shut.
Tony Mancuso:
Thank you both for helping out and providing the context and the backstory
there.
Tony Mancuso:
With all the depth and respect in my heart.
Tony Mancuso:
Not going to be letting anybody campaign.
Tony Mancuso:
Sincerely with all due respect.
Tony Mancuso:
I need to just keep this one focused.
Tony Mancuso:
And so in the most plain form of language, and I appreciate the.
Tony Mancuso:
30,000 foot view very well.
Tony Mancuso:
And that ownership as well, but.
Tony Mancuso:
What the question.
Tony Mancuso:
In plain language right now.
Tony Mancuso:
Is when looking at the 80%.
Tony Mancuso:
Of housing units.
Tony Mancuso:
That will be.
Tony Mancuso:
Occupied in some way by a local resident.
Tony Mancuso:
How many of that 80%.
Tony Mancuso:
Should we allow it to be purchased by someone from out of the air?
Tony Mancuso:
That's the number.
Tony Mancuso:
I think we can throw them out.
Tony Mancuso:
But what is a fair number to you?
Tony Mancuso:
That 80% of the pie.
Tony Mancuso:
We're going to let outside investors by some of them.
Tony Mancuso:
How much is that number?
Tony Mancuso:
This as it is written, if we take.
Tony Mancuso:
40% of the units could be.
Tony Mancuso:
This is that it's in the center of the right.
Tony Mancuso:
I was 50.
Jerry Klaes:
So.
Tony Mancuso:
Theoretically 40% of the units could be.
Tony Mancuso:
Of the total units, including the other.
Tony Mancuso:
All.
Tony Mancuso:
40%.
Tony Mancuso:
Would it be owned by someone in Cortez?
Robert O'Brien:
And.
Tony Mancuso:
And occupied by.
Jerry Klaes:
Tony.
Jerry Klaes:
One of the things that Chrissy brought up in the last meeting was.
Jerry Klaes:
She just threw that number out there.
Jerry Klaes:
It's kind of.
Jerry Klaes:
Starting point.
Jerry Klaes:
Proposed to be.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah, no, it was just based on.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
The requirements for condos.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And I thought that it would be a simple number for people to comply with.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Because it's already established.
Tony Mancuso:
Thank you precedent.
Tony Mancuso:
If you, if it leans on the precedent, I automatically.
Jerry Klaes:
Sorry.
Aaron Lindberg:
I, the one thing I, when you, when you.
Aaron Lindberg:
Then you just said, the only thing I disagree with that is not.
Aaron Lindberg:
Necessarily.
Aaron Lindberg:
I come back to my previous little speech.
Aaron Lindberg:
I would like to give something that would show a reflection of the compromise
that I think exists in the economy commission.
Aaron Lindberg:
I propose a 60 40, which would roughly.
Aaron Lindberg:
Or 60 40, which would.
Aaron Lindberg:
Which would say that like 60.
Tony Mancuso:
Locally owned.
Tony Mancuso:
Six 40.
Tony Mancuso:
Non-locally owned 60 non-locally.
Aaron Lindberg:
Okay.
Aaron Lindberg:
Even though personally, I would like to.
Aaron Lindberg:
See it reversed.
Aaron Lindberg:
I would like to give something to the commission.
Aaron Lindberg:
That's like.
Aaron Lindberg:
Reflects a compromise of where they all stand.
Robert O'Brien:
And I don't really say.
Robert O'Brien:
I think we've got just two issues that.
Robert O'Brien:
You highlighted that, you know, we're kind of substantive issues.
Robert O'Brien:
And.
Robert O'Brien:
I would, I would like to present to the commission.
Robert O'Brien:
What we think is best.
Robert O'Brien:
Not off the wall.
Robert O'Brien:
Not off the wall.
Robert O'Brien:
These are two, these are two issues.
Robert O'Brien:
Only.
Robert O'Brien:
I think, I think the recommendations coming out right now is.
Robert O'Brien:
One that, you know, a lot, a lot of commissioners alike.
Robert O'Brien:
I don't know about this one.
Tony Mancuso:
But.
Robert O'Brien:
I think we ought to give them our best.
Robert O'Brien:
I think we ought to give them our best.
Robert O'Brien:
Not to stick it to anybody at all.
Robert O'Brien:
Because that's not the way you want to do it.
Robert O'Brien:
But this is what we think is best for the HBHO.
Robert O'Brien:
I've lost on one of those.
Robert O'Brien:
I'm probably going to vote for whatever packets.
Robert O'Brien:
We have, because I think it needs to go in front of the county commission.
Robert O'Brien:
Although I would, I would ask that it be reported to them that there was some
dissent around.
Jerry Klaes:
Yes.
Robert O'Brien:
Typical.
Robert O'Brien:
And I, and I'm, and I'm going to say, I don't see why.
Robert O'Brien:
HOAs are special.
Robert O'Brien:
Well, the HOA language.
Robert O'Brien:
The HOA language is special.
Robert O'Brien:
And you can make it.
Jerry Klaes:
So.
Robert O'Brien:
Just like if you were renting all the units and you have, and it happened to
have a.
Robert O'Brien:
Well, let's say 20.
Aaron Lindberg:
Right.
Robert O'Brien:
If you weren't an HOA.
Robert O'Brien:
If you were a developer, if you were a HOA, if you were a regular developer and
you were selling all the property should be 80 20.
Robert O'Brien:
But, but this is kind of.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
The triple I version doesn't incorporate.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It's just.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
You know, all of them.
Robert O'Brien:
Yeah, we took that out.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Robert O'Brien:
All of them.
Robert O'Brien:
So now it covers everybody.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Everybody.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Robert O'Brien:
I'm really not comfortable.
Aaron Lindberg:
You know, Mary brought up a good point.
Aaron Lindberg:
The last time we had.
Aaron Lindberg:
It was like, well, people have bought into this.
Aaron Lindberg:
As it was written.
Aaron Lindberg:
And, you know, they kind of like.
Aaron Lindberg:
They.
Aaron Lindberg:
They signed up for this.
Aaron Lindberg:
I thought about that, Mary.
Aaron Lindberg:
And I, I think there's a lot, a lot of, a lot of points to that.
Aaron Lindberg:
However, I feel like I do have to bring up, flesh out this argument for it to
be aired out.
Aaron Lindberg:
Some people that started the HBHO thought that there was no local ownership.
Aaron Lindberg:
Requirement.
Aaron Lindberg:
On that.
Aaron Lindberg:
So I would just kind of like to hear kind of the counter point to that because
some people bought into it.
Aaron Lindberg:
Thinking that they were like, oh no, we can sell these.
Laura Long:
We can sell this.
Laura Long:
We can sell this.
Aaron Lindberg:
And then.
Aaron Lindberg:
Then there was all these lawsuits.
Aaron Lindberg:
And so it's like.
Aaron Lindberg:
That argument stands.
Aaron Lindberg:
But then it's like, then there's this.
Aaron Lindberg:
What's up.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
They could have pulled their.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It's not recorded.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
At that point.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And I do think that that needs to be clarified.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I do think that that needs to be clarified.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
What happened with.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
The appeal process happened before final.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So at that point, those developers still could have pulled out.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Just to make sure that we have already.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Cause I do think that that is important points that maybe has been lost.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And even at that point, and I know that there was a lot of, you know, there is
money that.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
That goes into development and there's an application fee and there's impact,
you know, like those things are paid.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And that would have been lost, but they, they went forward.
Jerry Klaes:
So.
Aaron Lindberg:
So that's the lawsuit.
Aaron Lindberg:
They still bought in.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Like I just went through.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
The appeal process with.
Aaron Lindberg:
I really wanted to hear it because I heard that side.
Aaron Lindberg:
I was like, well, that's a point, you know?
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So all the.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
All of the.
Tony Mancuso:
Thank you.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Bases for that were recorded happened after like all of the final plat faces
happened after we went to.
Jerry Klaes:
Yes.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And so there was one.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
After that happened, there was one additional appeal that went to.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
After the appeal process, there was one additional.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And then there was one additional.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Lawsuit that was our claim that was filed in district court.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And then there was a settlement associated with that one with an amended master
plan.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And that was on one of the properties.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And so.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Keep that in mind.
Jerry Klaes:
Interestingly, none of those people came to the hearing.
Jerry Klaes:
So.
Tony Mancuso:
I don't know.
Jerry Klaes:
I don't know if they brought the issue.
Jerry Klaes:
You know, brought their concerns.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And they probably will go to the commission.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
But I just, just to clarify that.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I just want to make sure that that part's understood that final plan was
reported after that.
Tony Mancuso:
Narrow.
Tony Mancuso:
Of the conversation a little bit.
Tony Mancuso:
What is in front of us?
Tony Mancuso:
We have.
Tony Mancuso:
We have two I and three I.
Aaron Lindberg:
Right.
Tony Mancuso:
Do I was the older language.
Tony Mancuso:
You clarified a bunch of that.
Tony Mancuso:
I think we can just scratch that.
Tony Mancuso:
Physically don't read that.
Tony Mancuso:
Stop it.
Tony Mancuso:
Don't get confused.
Tony Mancuso:
Do I scratch that?
Tony Mancuso:
Bye.
Tony Mancuso:
Now there's, there's, there's three I.
Aaron Lindberg:
Okay.
Tony Mancuso:
And this is the question.
Tony Mancuso:
The number we really want to settle on up to.
Tony Mancuso:
Blank percent.
Tony Mancuso:
Of the ownership interest and property.
Tony Mancuso:
Maybe held by individuals.
Tony Mancuso:
You're not qualified.
Tony Mancuso:
How high should that number be?
Tony Mancuso:
Everything else in this is it's great.
Tony Mancuso:
It's got the qualified household, the primary residence, the dealership.
Tony Mancuso:
Like it's all in there.
Tony Mancuso:
The question is.
Tony Mancuso:
Understanding the reality that this number will get set.
Tony Mancuso:
To Aaron's point.
Tony Mancuso:
Not tonight.
Tony Mancuso:
But.
Tony Mancuso:
A week from now, two weeks from now, whenever they have their meeting.
Tony Mancuso:
Thank you.
Tony Mancuso:
We need to have a number.
Tony Mancuso:
Aaron proposed 60.
Tony Mancuso:
I think OB proposed 20.
Aaron Lindberg:
Right.
Tony Mancuso:
As you were saying.
Tony Mancuso:
Exactly.
Jerry Klaes:
So.
Tony Mancuso:
Maybe we want to stop all 16 and 20.
Jerry Klaes:
So let's clarify before we do that.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Aaron Lindberg:
Okay.
Jerry Klaes:
So let's say.
Jerry Klaes:
A development.
Jerry Klaes:
HDHO with a hundred units.
Jerry Klaes:
We're saying 50% or whatever, for example, 50%.
Jerry Klaes:
So in other words, 50 of these.
Tony Mancuso:
No.
Tony Mancuso:
This applies to the 80%.
Tony Mancuso:
That isn't just going to get sold to me.
Tony Mancuso:
Remember that.
Jerry Klaes:
That's not what this says.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Tony Mancuso:
50% of the ownership interest in a property designated under the section, maybe
public.
Jerry Klaes:
And then the HDHO development designated under the section.
Jerry Klaes:
I read that as 50% of the entire group.
Jerry Klaes:
Jerry brought up that point.
Aaron Lindberg:
For sure.
Jerry Klaes:
And if that's the case, you can scratch 20% off right away.
Jerry Klaes:
Because they're going to be gone.
Jerry Klaes:
So.
Jerry Klaes:
Yeah, Tony, I think it's worth reconciling.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Tony Mancuso:
I've been out of service.
Jerry Klaes:
Tony, but let's, let's grind that into.
Jerry Klaes:
Just so we know what we're talking about.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Tony Mancuso:
So does it.
Tony Mancuso:
I want to like loud and clear on the record.
Tony Mancuso:
The spirit of this language.
Tony Mancuso:
Is that.
Tony Mancuso:
This applies only to the 80% of the pilots left behind under the entire.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I read it as a plan to the entire issue.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
50% can be owned.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And that would include the 20.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So it would be 30% of the remaining.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
The remaining 80.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Would be purchased by outside.
Jerry Klaes:
In case of bond.
Tony Mancuso:
Is that the understanding that the conversation that the housing task force was
working with too, was that.
Tony Mancuso:
Like that.
Speaker 13:
I don't think we went into it like that.
Speaker 13:
I don't think we went into it like that.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
There's no way to separate those.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Just so you guys don't want the language with the way that an ordinance reads.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
There's no way for me to talk about.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
You know, 80% of.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I could, I could say.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
50% of deed restricted HDHO.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I could add the restricted to this language.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And that would.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Make it 50% of the eight.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So 40.
Tony Mancuso:
40%.
Jerry Klaes:
So.
Mary Hofhine:
that.
Tony Mancuso:
But it's a good catch.
Tony Mancuso:
That is a great catch.
Tony Mancuso:
Thank you, Terry.
Tony Mancuso:
I tend to like specifying that this ratio applies to the deed-restricted HCHO
units.
Tony Mancuso:
The way I look at it, the 20% is already an incentive.
Tony Mancuso:
That's a number not going to change.
Tony Mancuso:
That's a wash.
Tony Mancuso:
That's not on the table.
Tony Mancuso:
I think I was told very specifically six weeks ago that you're not even
supposed to touch the 80-20 on that.
Tony Mancuso:
So let's specify this applies to these deed-restricted units, not the free
market units.
Tony Mancuso:
Thank you.
Tony Mancuso:
So that's...
Jerry Klaes:
What simplifies the math?
Tony Mancuso:
It simplifies the math a lot.
Tony Mancuso:
You don't get into the overlays thing in the world, but that's what's trendy
and fashionable now.
Tony Mancuso:
It's the planning mode.
Tony Mancuso:
And to that point, 20, 60, 50.
Aaron Lindberg:
Yeah, I think that 50...
Aaron Lindberg:
Reading it how we were just saying, that is a big...
Aaron Lindberg:
Let's say I went with my proposal of a 60-40 on that.
Aaron Lindberg:
That would bump up that 80%, another 10%.
Tony Mancuso:
I don't know.
Laura Long:
I feel like...
Laura Long:
What was the point of the HDHO?
Laura Long:
Mary, you had really good points on this last meeting.
Mary Hofhine:
I feel like this ordinance has been vetted from the very first moment it was
written.
Mary Hofhine:
I feel like Obie was a part of that.
Mary Hofhine:
And I respect that he's still wanting to keep it as is for that reason, because
he was a part of it.
Mary Hofhine:
He understood it.
Mary Hofhine:
It was vetted.
Mary Hofhine:
That wasn't written in a day.
Mary Hofhine:
It won an award, so obviously it was written well.
Mary Hofhine:
And everybody that had read it was in the planning section, department, and
voted on it for being awarded.
Mary Hofhine:
And I feel like people...
Mary Hofhine:
It's like me going through a zone change.
Mary Hofhine:
And then when I get there, I go, I really don't want this.
Mary Hofhine:
I think I need more units.
Mary Hofhine:
So I come to the county and say, hey, I can't sell them because I'm not getting
enough units.
Mary Hofhine:
I think it was written well, and I respect it, and I don't want to remove any
of the integrity.
Laura Long:
I feel like it was a compromise for developers already by giving them a huge
density bonus, and now we're compromising on a compromise.
Mary Hofhine:
And the whole county had to buy it.
Mary Hofhine:
This isn't just developers.
Mary Hofhine:
Neighbors hate it, so I kind of feel bad for them for a lot of reasons.
Jerry Klaes:
I guess the only reason, Mary, that I see some benefit to putting some
percentage of these as open for sale, still used by qualified households, but
open for sale for the general market, is we'll get more of them.
Mary Hofhine:
Well, and I'll tell you, Chrissy's explained that too, and I understood it
after she explained it to me.
Mary Hofhine:
But it took her three times.
Mary Hofhine:
It wasn't her fault.
Mary Hofhine:
It was two or three times.
Mary Hofhine:
And so I kind of understand why it's a good compromise, but hey, where are you
going?
Mary Hofhine:
Nobody is there.
Mary Hofhine:
You knew what was going on.
Mary Hofhine:
And if you're there, and you're helping right away, and you're through that
whole process, and you've been through the months and the hundreds of public
hearings, I'm sure it wasn't easy.
Mary Hofhine:
Unless there's something there that has to happen, and if it were to help the
community, 100%.
Mary Hofhine:
But I don't know that somebody in Colorado is open to it, except when they
sell.
Jerry Klaes:
It's one thing that somebody in, let's say in Montana, somebody from Montana
buys one of these, and they can only rent to a qualified household.
Jerry Klaes:
They're not going to leave it there empty forever.
Jerry Klaes:
They can't use it.
Jerry Klaes:
That's right.
Jerry Klaes:
So eventually, if it doesn't rent, they lower the rate until it does.
Laura Long:
It's a good idea.
Jerry Klaes:
It's going to happen.
Laura Long:
And also, instead of aggressively trying to change all this minutiae, why don't
you advertise this to the local workforce?
Laura Long:
How many people actually know that this is a thing?
Laura Long:
I didn't, before I was on planning commission.
Aaron Lindberg:
I don't know if that's part of our responsibility.
Mary Hofhine:
Not ours.
Laura Long:
It's not ours, but who's trying to change it?
Mary Hofhine:
And I feel that way too.
Mary Hofhine:
The developers are the ones that are supposed to be making this work.
Aaron Lindberg:
I do hear things where it's like, these guys spent a lot of time, but time has
passed.
Aaron Lindberg:
You got new things.
Aaron Lindberg:
The whole financing thing was because we didn't know about it.
Aaron Lindberg:
I think we're all 100% consensus.
Robert O'Brien:
It is the one part of the HDHO that I think people didn't foresee it was a
financial part.
Robert O'Brien:
It's the thing that eventually, at first, developers understandably said, we
can't get finances for this, so we can't build them.
Robert O'Brien:
And it's one of the reasons lots of things didn't get built.
Laura Long:
They hid the whole thing.
Aaron Lindberg:
Right.
Robert O'Brien:
And now I'm going to shut up because I interrupted.
Robert O'Brien:
I agree with you on that.
Aaron Lindberg:
My concern with this is if you open up the ownership to, let's just say
Californians, because we all love Californians.
Aaron Lindberg:
So Californians buy out this person and they rent them to locals.
Aaron Lindberg:
But the thing that I don't know, and this is a political decision, is like,
okay, Gavin Newsom buys an HDHO.
Aaron Lindberg:
Now the price, let's say it's Murphy Flats.
Aaron Lindberg:
They're going for $250,000. Because Gavin Newsom can buy one for $200,000 now,
Aaron Lindberg:
Did the price go up?
Aaron Lindberg:
$280,000?
Aaron Lindberg:
$320,000?
Tony Mancuso:
I don't know.
Aaron Lindberg:
We can't know that number.
Aaron Lindberg:
And then a local is like, oh, man, I could afford $250,000, but now it's
$320,000, and now I can't buy them.
Aaron Lindberg:
And it inhibits local ownership.
Aaron Lindberg:
That's my concern about opening it up to non-local ownership.
Aaron Lindberg:
That is my concern.
Tony Mancuso:
I share all your concerns personally, in principle.
Tony Mancuso:
I feel some trepidation about trying to look into our crystal ball and figure
out what the housing market is going to do in the next five years.
Tony Mancuso:
I don't think I want to weigh that variable quite as much in my calculus.
Tony Mancuso:
Interest rates are the same as they were a year and a half ago.
Tony Mancuso:
The number here, the point of this is to make the financial incentive exist so
that the development gets built.
Tony Mancuso:
And I don't know that much about development financing.
Tony Mancuso:
But I know those apartments next to the cell phone tower in Sherry Griffith out
there in Arroyo Crossing filled up instantly in their routes.
Tony Mancuso:
And I know those are all local working families - it filled up instantly.
Tony Mancuso:
If The cost of a doorknob has a lot more to do with the financial feasibility
of a development than I think our appetites for luxury have gotten a little bit
out of hand.
Tony Mancuso:
When we build certain things and we try to make it affordable, but it can't be
affordable because of a certain standard.
Tony Mancuso:
So I mentioned that to say that I don't really feel a kind of like, oh, poor
baby sympathy for the development side of the conversation.
Tony Mancuso:
Other than the fact that we need to start getting these things built because
there is an appetite.
Tony Mancuso:
And I don't really know how to reconcile that, given that I haven't stocked
this toolbox with tools.
Tony Mancuso:
It was gifted to me and these are the tools that we have.
Tony Mancuso:
And so we're talking about this number.
Tony Mancuso:
The 45 is a 40.
Jerry Klaes:
We knew this would be a hard one.
Aaron Lindberg:
I mean, that's why I'm into proposing to keep some of them for local ownership.
Aaron Lindberg:
So people, those markets are protected for local ownership.
Aaron Lindberg:
And that is why I'm against just getting rid of all the requirements.
Aaron Lindberg:
So thank you so much.
Tony Mancuso:
Do we all agree that we have to remove the ownership requirement entirely?
Tony Mancuso:
We want to have some set aside for-
Jerry Klaes:
That's a good place to start. I think that's an agreement that we want to get
rid of II and the bottom of the other alternate of II.
Aaron Lindberg:
Well, is Mary in agreement with that or no?
Tony Mancuso:
Anybody actually want to keep the move ownership requirements?
Megan Schafer:
My only thought, and it's just we have empty units for many reasons, not
necessarily because of this.
Megan Schafer:
But say we do 60-40 and the local ownership is occupied or vice versa.
Megan Schafer:
The outside ownership is occupied and we're not occupying those other ones
because of this restriction.
Megan Schafer:
Are we going to continue to have empty units because of this percentage?
Megan Schafer:
That's really, this is where my biggest heartburn has been because if we're
playing devil's advocate and let's say a corporation who has a business here who
employs a lot of people wants to buy some of those units for employee housing
because they can't build employee housing.
Megan Schafer:
But that percentage has already been met and they can't acquire more because of
the local ownership percentage.
Megan Schafer:
This is where my mind is like, how do we keep units from sitting unoccupied if
there's a demand for selling these units that isn't necessarily local ownership
but it's local employment?
Megan Schafer:
Because at the end of the day, these are for local employment.
Megan Schafer:
But if it's an outside corporate like a grocery store.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
But if they're serving the local area, which a grocery store is, they're
allowed to purchase.
Aaron Lindberg:
Megan, I think what you're talking about, I think it's like we have the empty
units like in Murphy Flats.
Aaron Lindberg:
I think the lendability was the main problem with that.
Megan Schafer:
Right, and in watching the workshop, I was trying to see all sides of it from
the opening it up, from restricting it, from everything in between.
Megan Schafer:
But that answers my question because if we can't build affordable housing but
these units are available, but it wouldn't necessarily be this owner-occupied
situation.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah, so that was, I think, a little bit of the confusion.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
A business can always purchase these and always has been.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And that was something that I think got a little bit confused at the beginning
of HDHL, but a business can purchase these and always has been able to as long
as they're serving the local area.
Megan Schafer:
That's where my big hang-up was because it's like if we've met that percentage
but we have empty units on the flip side of this, either way, how do we fill
these units?
Megan Schafer:
Because at the end of the day, my goal in making my decision is we fill these
units so we have employed families who have homes here.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Well, and another number just to keep in mind, I don't want to get in the
weeds, but we have a hundred and, sorry, 98.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
We have about 150 units coming online for just rental in the next year.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Which makes the ownership side of this.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Just rental, they're just rental units, so they're not going to be sold at all.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Are they built?
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
34 of them are built almost.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
They're not, they don't have a certificate of occupancy.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
The 98 are moving.
Laura Long:
So you're saying there's like a solid pool of rentals in the market and they're
approved.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
One of them is an apartment complex, so they can't be sold.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
One of them is townhomes that they're not selling down.
Mary Hofhine:
And they're HTA townhomes?
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
That's just our number.
Tony Mancuso:
That's a good data point.
Tony Mancuso:
Actually, in the context of the unavoidable crystal ball of the housing market,
that's not actually going to give us very much information.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
Tony, can I ask a quick clarifying question just from this?
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
Of talking to Megan's point that you had, that we had talked about, Trish, can
you tell me what's going on with this?
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
We had talked about, I think it was something like, was it had to be, it had to
be, the units had to be occupied.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
Was it nine months out of the year for anything?
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
Is that, was that just for businesses or does that apply to all rental units?
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
There was a conversation.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yes, I remember this.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
Is that this, did that make it into the language?
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It's not, it's never been, never been a part of HTA.
Commissioner Brian Martinez:
Oh, I know, but there was something that we were talking about adding it.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yes, and that it was not added because there's nothing in the language that
told people they have to do it.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So we couldn't retroactively enforce that on any.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So I, it would be illegal, yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So we couldn't enforce something additional.
Robert O'Brien:
Trish, can I just, on the data point, so there's going to be 170 some units
that will be, and what was the limit for the HDHO when they finally cut it off?
Robert O'Brien:
Was it?
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
302.
Robert O'Brien:
That's interesting.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
No, 300, maybe, 313.
Robert O'Brien:
So, you know, it's interesting, Tony.
Robert O'Brien:
The one thing I might have said is, when the one alternative that's not here is
strike it because that's actually probably what I'm arguing for.
Robert O'Brien:
Right here.
Robert O'Brien:
Does it say keep as is?
Robert O'Brien:
And that means strike it.
Robert O'Brien:
Yeah, okay.
Robert O'Brien:
And that's, that's probably what I'm for.
Laura Long:
Strike holding, I agree with that.
Aaron Lindberg:
The only problem that I see with striking OB is that we might get something,
let me leave it to the commission, and they're going to give a 4-3 vote, like
that takes it all out.
Aaron Lindberg:
And so that's why I'm a big advocate of finding a good compromise that works
for each one.
Aaron Lindberg:
Because I think at the end of the day, or not at the end of the day, some of
the things, Megan, that you were saying, about getting units filled.
Aaron Lindberg:
Sometimes I think it's important to have units filled with people that own
their places, because these may be the only places that a person making $20, $25
an hour can afford.
Aaron Lindberg:
And it would be, we're cutting back on that market.
Aaron Lindberg:
And I seriously wonder in this country about ownership is fleeting this
country.
Aaron Lindberg:
And we need to think about future generations having buy-in or this country is
going to have a lot of problems, because they are not going to be bought in to
markets.
Aaron Lindberg:
And it's upon local planning commissions, I think, to preserve some of this.
Aaron Lindberg:
Or, I mean, we're going to have Che Guevara t-shirts of things.
Robert O'Brien:
I only have one quick thing.
Robert O'Brien:
170 out of 300 units have been built with this 80% requirement.
Robert O'Brien:
I wouldn't bet the rest of them aren't going to be built.
Robert O'Brien:
Or some people have fully dropped out.
Robert O'Brien:
If you resubmit, you wouldn't get people who wanted to do HDHO under the
current financing that would be willing to have 80% ownership of locals.
Laura Long:
That's it.
Laura Long:
So I think, yeah, also, Megan, like, do you just want people to get in there to
rent so they can work here?
Laura Long:
Or do you want to build like the locals here that work here and serve the
community to also, like, have a chance at building wealth?
Laura Long:
And, like, if you own something versus renting something, it's a big
difference.
Megan Schafer:
Ownership, I will always be for, because I commuted for five years before I
moved here.
Megan Schafer:
And I moved here through the HASU program.
Megan Schafer:
So I am 100% for that.
Megan Schafer:
What I'm saying is, if we have, we know Murphy Flats is a lendability issue,
but say it wasn't a lendability issue.
Megan Schafer:
Say we just had these units that we couldn't get into because of restrictions
or because of this percentage that's in place.
Megan Schafer:
Are we dealing with that though?
Laura Long:
Is that have a problem?
Megan Schafer:
What do you mean?
Megan Schafer:
Like, I'm just trying to play out scenarios of this.
Megan Schafer:
Like I was trying to play out any possible scenario if we happen to meet one
side of this percentage, just say we do.
Tony Mancuso:
So I want to point out that when the phrase lendability issue comes up,
lendability issues are not unique to HDHO at all.
Tony Mancuso:
So I would be hesitant to blame Fannie and Freddie for the recent HDHO filth at
all.
Tony Mancuso:
That's not, I mean, if you want the truth, it's the fact that people in my
generation, student loans are so high that the DTI can never get brought down in
summer.
Speaker 12:
That's what it is, okay?
Tony Mancuso:
So that's that.
Tony Mancuso:
And so that's not unique to the HDHO.
Tony Mancuso:
That problem, the lendability issue is conventional mortgages, USDA, Schedule
40.
Tony Mancuso:
It's ubiquitous.
Tony Mancuso:
I think that when we see vacant units, whether or not they're being sold and
it's a lendability issue or whether or not they're being rented and they're
vacant because the developer can't sell them.
Tony Mancuso:
I want to be sensitive to a needful community, but we cannot do anything with
this ordinance that guarantees those units will be filled.
Tony Mancuso:
That's not what we're doing here.
Tony Mancuso:
We're on the planning side of things.
Tony Mancuso:
The conversation after the CMO is issued and the thing's been built, that's the
free market.
Tony Mancuso:
That's America, right?
Tony Mancuso:
What we're doing here is on the side of the conversation before the thing gets
built.
Tony Mancuso:
How many are we going to let get sold to California?
Tony Mancuso:
Yeah, it seems pretty clear to me that that is a greater than zero number.
Tony Mancuso:
It's already 20%.
Tony Mancuso:
It's already 20%.
Tony Mancuso:
It's a greater than 20% number of the total size of this dollar.
Tony Mancuso:
So I'm going to ask this again.
Tony Mancuso:
Another 20%, another 60%.
Tony Mancuso:
I strongly like Aaron's point and maybe I'm just tired of all this, but I would
love to see some kind of compromise that actually gets us on the same page with
the County Commission at least once.
Tony Mancuso:
There is absolutely no reason to throw out all of the hard work that the task
force did and all the conversations that went into this and then just let them
write whatever the heck they want anyway, which is what will happen.
Laura Long:
In my opinion, I think that's no matter what we, if we're going to make any
changes, we're the advisory board, right?
Laura Long:
In my experience, I don't think there's going to be a compromise.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
Can I make a comment?
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
One of the big things in most of those meetings is, and I still hear it all the
time, we're supposed to be following our advisory boards.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
So I'm hearing it all the time.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
So to me, if they're not, it's hypocritical.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
So I'm hoping there will be some, you know, that's what they keep saying.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
So let's do it.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
And we have a really good board here, a very, to me, diverse, interactive,
bantering board.
Laura Long:
And we serve the people of Grand County.
Megan Schafer:
I like the 60-40.
Megan Schafer:
I think that it's a good starting place to offer some kind of compromise in
this situation.
Jerry Klaes:
I think we got enough different opinions here that we're not going to come to
one number and we're going to have to just see if we can come to something that
all of us can live.
Jerry Klaes:
But the only, I brought this up before, really my only thought is, if we make
it easier for these things to be sold, we're going to get more.
Jerry Klaes:
And we have a housing problem.
Laura Long:
We're going to get what?
Jerry Klaes:
Sorry.
Jerry Klaes:
We're going to get more of them
Jerry Klaes:
And we have a housing problem.
Jerry Klaes:
I would love to see people spending their money to help our qualified
households have a place to live.
Jerry Klaes:
And it's going to be things like people's parents.
Jerry Klaes:
You know, it's not going to just be the horrible ghoul from California.
Jerry Klaes:
It's going to be people's parents and aunts and uncles and whatever too, right?
Jerry Klaes:
But in the end, opening up ownership, I'm not saying occupancy, that's nailed
down.
Jerry Klaes:
We're not changing that.
Jerry Klaes:
Opening up ownership will help developers have more confidence and we're going
to get more product built.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Just to clarify, make sure you guys all understand this.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Everything is sunsetting.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So no new developments are coming from this.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
But yeah, it's expired.
Jerry Klaes:
It's only what's out there in the pipeline.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah, already what's approved and has a final plat associated with it.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
There was a couple or at least one development for their final flat on their
last phases lapsed.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So that reversed to the underlying selling and only what's on what's vested in
the final plot that's been reported can be built and sold and whatever.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So keep that in mind.
Aaron Lindberg:
Just I want to make sure that I would like to say, that's not to say that, oh,
hey, this program, we like it.
Aaron Lindberg:
Let's un-sunset it.
Aaron Lindberg:
I mean, a commission could do that.
Tony Mancuso:
That's what the commission's doing.
Aaron Lindberg:
But they're not.
Jerry Klaes:
But what we're going to do with this then, is keep somethings that haven't been
built from expiring.
Jerry Klaes:
That would be the best case.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
My understanding is that they've sunsetted.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
They had the development agreement.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It existed.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
They had this, you know, certain amount of months to get things done.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
They weren't done.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I guess that there is room to open up negotiation on those development
agreements, but there wouldn't be new HDHOs coming online from this.
Tony Mancuso:
Then why, I mean, that's a bit of fundamental things.
Tony Mancuso:
Why are we editing an expired ordinance?
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So that's, and that's always been my question too.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
That's why I had such a hard time with a lot of this with creating a new deed
restriction.
Tony Mancuso:
I just, like, that....
Tony Mancuso:
The entire point of this exercise was that you're going to turn HDHO back on.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
No it's because we had a couple of commissioners that wanted to have an
opinion.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So this is the opening of ownership.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
This is like essentially, you know, affecting the rules of regulations.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It does change.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It will, when people enter into the deed restriction that I presented last
time, it does allow them through this land use code, which are those adjusting.
Tony Mancuso:
Okay, so this is going to, I need very specific clarification.
Tony Mancuso:
These changes will affect exactly how many?
Tony Mancuso:
130.
Laura Long:
Is it still the same amount?
Tony Mancuso:
That's the geographic area.
Tony Mancuso:
I mean, like how many actual units are we talking about here?
Tony Mancuso:
Because if we're having this debate over 400 houses...
Megan Schafer:
Less than three, I think, because of the ones that are already built.
Aaron Lindberg:
There is a new bill with that path.
Aaron Lindberg:
Like the state has made its own HCHO bill.
Aaron Lindberg:
And I think part of the commission wants to be like, should we choose the
state's one or should we choose our local one?
Aaron Lindberg:
And I think that's kind of in the background.
Megan Schafer:
They need to make that decision, then.
Mary Hofhine:
But one of the things that when it went to 50%, that was an arbitrary number
from Chrissy.
Tony Mancuso:
Well, it wasn't entirely arbitrary.
Tony Mancuso:
There was some precedent with the combination.
Mary Hofhine:
That's the reason why.
Tony Mancuso:
It wasn't.
Mary Hofhine:
But the number that any one person looked at and decided that, well, this is
why.
Tony Mancuso:
I also do want to like, that data point really should drive our passion for a
moment.
Tony Mancuso:
What is the maximum number of housing units that may be bought by Californians
if the number is 50%?
Tony Mancuso:
Because this only affects the existing vested units, right?
Tony Mancuso:
So we have a definitive number, right?
Tony Mancuso:
This isn't like all future HDHOs because the HDHOs are-
Tony Mancuso:
And then they have to opt in.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So 253.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
There are 253 vested HDO Deed restricted units that were approved through the
HDHO program.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
98 and 34 of those are rentals.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So the rest of them, 98 and 34 were rentals only.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
They're apartment complex.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And then there's townhomes.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Those townhomes technically could be sold.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So, you know, at this point, that 34 looks like it's going to just be rentals
along with the 98.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It's just going to be rentals.
Laura Long:
That was 253?
Tony Mancuso:
253 are de-restricted.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
313 total units.
Tony Mancuso:
253 are de-restricted.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So- And I'm only giving you deed-restricted numbers.
Robert O'Brien:
These rules we're going over right now would change the rules for them.
Tony Mancuso:
And only them!
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
That's why I say like, So what is the issue of- Well, it's just they open it
back up and then it would apply to any new- And we would have to, you know, put
the overlay back and it would go through the zoning process.
Tony Mancuso:
Yeah, it would all over again.
Tony Mancuso:
But this moment in time, we're talking about, you know, do we allow 125 housing
units or 80 housing units to be bought by California?
Tony Mancuso:
And so the real numbers we're talking about, just for like, this is how much
time we're spending on 80 or 120 or, you know-
Robert O'Brien:
And does it also mean that folks that have sold 80% of the units to locals who
are, I'm sorry, actively employed households now could go back and say, well, we
can get rid of some of those because now we're allowed to have 50% of those or
whatever the number is.Can they go back and change?
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
This, a local who currently owns it could sell it to an outside entity, yes.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
If we change it.
Jerry Klaes:
Up to a total of whatever this number- To whatever this number is.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So it wouldn't only- I mean, it immediately applies to the ones that are on the
internet.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It would actually apply to everything that's vested.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It would actually apply to these 253 units.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
This number will apply to that, this 50% or 100% or 80% or whatever you guys
decide would affect these 253 HDHO units in a real way.
Tony Mancuso:
So, yes, yes.
Tony Mancuso:
I think a lot of, at least my understanding of the conversation had been driven
by maybe my presumption that this ordinance was going to affect all future HDHO
proposals.
Tony Mancuso:
That dramatically changes the context of the conversation.
Robert O'Brien:
Tony, it sounds like if I'm getting it right, it means that we could actually
kind of go have a regression the number that are owned by locals.
Robert O'Brien:
Yes, there might be 80% of these things owned by the locals now and there won't
have to be.
Robert O'Brien:
So we'll go backwards on this.
Jerry Klaes:
Is that actually the way it would work or would certain units be deed
restricted to local ownership and others not?
Tony Mancuso:
All the units are deed restricted.
Jerry Klaes:
To local ownership.
Tony Mancuso:
To local occupancy.
Jerry Klaes:
But my question was ownership.
Tony Mancuso:
Well, that's the number we're coming up with
Jerry Klaes:
Well, what's the percentage?
Jerry Klaes:
Let's see.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It wouldn't be to the property.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It could be, it would be up to the developer.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Typically when something like this, it's the first.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
First come, first serve.
Aaron Lindberg:
Right.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
would be how it works
Jerry Klaes:
That's what I was thinking.
Jerry Klaes:
It probably.
Jerry Klaes:
So I guess my thought on this, Chrissy, was a developer's got X number of units
for sale.
Jerry Klaes:
The deed actually, if they sold this to someone outside of the area.
Jerry Klaes:
So the ones going outside go first.
Jerry Klaes:
The ones local ownership would go second.
Jerry Klaes:
The deed would be restricted on those ones that went second to local ownership.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I think there would be deed restrictions on both.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
They would look a little different.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And I didn't want to throw those in front of you to confuse the issue.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It would be part.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
That's why I pulled the deed restriction out.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So you guys don't have to look at it.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So that's why there's that language that I proposed at DC that talks about the
owner must execute and record a legally binding agreement with the county
confirming.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And then within that, it would be sold back to a qualified household depending
on what's available.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So those 50 would be evolving.
Tony Mancuso:
I'm going to double down on the guidance that we're not <
the county attorney.
Tony Mancuso:
I have no idea how to get into that conversation and leave it alone.
Jerry Klaes:
The thing is, it's important to understand how this works.
Tony Mancuso:
Yes, yes.
Tony Mancuso:
But as far as the text of the deed restrictions, that's not really what the
question is.
Jerry Klaes:
That was the reason for my question, Chrissy.
Jerry Klaes:
Let's say that I don't intend to live in one of these, but I go out and then
buy one.
Jerry Klaes:
and i rent to a qualified household
Jerry Klaes:
10 years from now, I want to sell them.
Jerry Klaes:
Am I free to sell that same unit to anybody?
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Not necessarily.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Depends on what's available.
Jerry Klaes:
So that really increases risk for the buyer, doesn't it?
Jerry Klaes:
If they're one of these outside buyers, outside owners.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah, I guess it depends on...
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I mean, I don't...
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
A deed restriction on a property automatically lowers the value no matter what
the deed restriction is.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So I mean, I'm not going to get into it.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
But that part of the conversation is sort of...
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
That's part of their due diligence.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And it really has...
Jerry Klaes:
It creates kind of a wild dynamic in the market where if you have three of
these things for sale, for example, two of them for sale, for example, one is
owner's qualified household.
Jerry Klaes:
The other one is owner is whoever, Montana resident, whatever.
Jerry Klaes:
They're both on sale at the same time.
Jerry Klaes:
In theory, the first buyer that could come in could become a non-resident.
Jerry Klaes:
They could rent to a qualified household.
Jerry Klaes:
The other one would have to sit there and wait for a qualified household.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah, I mean, but that's what the...
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
That's what capitalism is based on, right?
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Welcome to America.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
That's kind of...
Jerry Klaes:
That's a weird dynamic.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I think one of the reasons I was hesitant to propose this language is because
of things like this.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Like it was a weird thing to wrap my head around.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
That's why I had the HOA involved.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
That's why I removed it from the county at all.
Tony Mancuso:
So, sorry.
Jerry Klaes:
I wonder if the commission appreciates that dynamic being brought in.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
The commission hasn't even seen this language, so they probably are...
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
They're probably not...
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I have no idea what they're going to do.
Mary Hofhine:
I'm going to have to say conversation with them.
Tony Mancuso:
I grew up in very rural Appalachia.
Tony Mancuso:
Moab is the largest city I've ever lived in.
Tony Mancuso:
And in my middle school, one of my civics teachers, his name was Trent Bryden.
Tony Mancuso:
He was a wildlife conservation officer at a summer camp.
Tony Mancuso:
And he introduced me to what I've taken to calling raccoon questions because a
kid had brought a raccoon to school and kept it in his gym locker for the entire
week.
Tony Mancuso:
I was like, he left.
Tony Mancuso:
No, it wasn't me.
Tony Mancuso:
And so, Trent Bryden kind of being like, the school's go get that skunk in the
football field guy.
Tony Mancuso:
I have to deal with this.
Tony Mancuso:
And then he came back to class and he gave us this rule.
Tony Mancuso:
You're not allowed to bring raccoons to school.
Tony Mancuso:
And then all the hands went up immediately.
Tony Mancuso:
Excuse me, Mr. Bryden.
Tony Mancuso:
What if a raccoon sneaks into my backpack and I did not know that the raccoon
was there?
Tony Mancuso:
Am I still going to get in trouble?
Tony Mancuso:
These are raccoon questions.
Tony Mancuso:
And we can go down that rabbit hole and find a million different ways that this
takes to work because it's an overlay.
Tony Mancuso:
And I don't think it's just what's in the planning world now.
Tony Mancuso:
We do serve the people of Grant County.
Tony Mancuso:
We also have a constituency of other voices of the plurality of opinions that
have gone into this.
Tony Mancuso:
We've got some really intelligent, well-crafted scribes pinning down what we
need.
Tony Mancuso:
There, to reiterate, will be at least 20% of these units that are going to be
bought by Californians.
Tony Mancuso:
We are being asked to increase that number.
Tony Mancuso:
People who know more about their own interests, developers, lenders, are
telling me that this is a good idea.
Tony Mancuso:
I don't know.
Tony Mancuso:
But we have a bit of an obligation to trust, I think, a process, a task force.
Tony Mancuso:
I don't know enough about this to say that any of those other voices are wrong,
even if I think they're suspicious.
Tony Mancuso:
So guys, what's the number?
Tony Mancuso:
I'm going to tell you right now.
Tony Mancuso:
I like the precedent that Chrissy used with the 50-50.
Tony Mancuso:
That's how condominiums work.
Tony Mancuso:
You can point to it.
Tony Mancuso:
It's nearby, but it's not too close of an analogy.
Tony Mancuso:
So I would say this number in this text should be 30.
Tony Mancuso:
That way, half of the units must be owned by locals and half of the units,
either deed-restricted or not, will probably be bought up by Texans.
Tony Mancuso:
But 50-50 is right where I want to be.
Tony Mancuso:
50, putting this number at 30, makes the entire development 50-50.
Jerry Klaes:
30% of the deed-restricted, so it's 49-51.
Jerry Klaes:
I give up.
Aaron Lindberg:
I'll give in on that.
Aaron Lindberg:
If it could be a whole consensus commission, I think that would be pretty cool.
Aaron Lindberg:
I'd easily cave in on that idea immediately.
Tony Mancuso:
50-50 precedent is good.
Tony Mancuso:
I'm trained to always think about how I'm going to have to defend my decision
in front of a judge and being able to point out another similar thing and say,
well, this number works for them.
Tony Mancuso:
It is rock-solid stuff.
Jerry Klaes:
So two changes to the wording.
Jerry Klaes:
Number one is, instead of saying 50% of the units, it would be the
deed-restricted units.
Jerry Klaes:
Yes.
Jerry Klaes:
And number two would be changing the 50 to a 30.
Tony Mancuso:
Those are the two changes I have on my mind.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So I wrote down 30% of the deed-restricted units, and that will go into the
regular.
Jerry Klaes:
Yes.
Robert O'Brien:
I'm probably going to vote against this, but it'll be in part because yes,
there are the developers.
Robert O'Brien:
People have to sell this.
Robert O'Brien:
People have to finance it.
Robert O'Brien:
And there's also the local workers and people who want to get ownership
actually for themselves.
Robert O'Brien:
And we heard from one pretty solidly.
Robert O'Brien:
That's the nice thing about workshopping these things with the public coming in
and saying, so what do you think the number ought to be?
Robert O'Brien:
If we're going to include, if we're going to increase density in your area, do
you think it should be 50-50, 80-20, 20-80?
Robert O'Brien:
So the one thing, of course, I will ask, especially if there's anybody else who
votes with me on this, is it should be recorded probably this number wasn't, you
know, there was debate about this number.
Robert O'Brien:
And the issues really are ownership for locals.
Tony Mancuso:
And I mean, this meeting is being recorded.
Tony Mancuso:
Yeah, it's available on YouTube.
Tony Mancuso:
And it's the county commission's prerogative to do their homework and listen to
our voices.
Tony Mancuso:
We are advisory only.
Jerry Klaes:
You know, to that point too, and Chrissy in the minutes, in the written
minutes, can you record the straw poll results?
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah, I wrote them down.
Tony Mancuso:
And then also we're still deliberating and do plan on taking another straw poll
so that we can keep track of changes made on this copy here.
Tony Mancuso:
So the vote and not know what we're voting.
Tony Mancuso:
Laura, sorry.
Laura Long:
No, you're good.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
I'm sorry.
Laura Long:
I'm just not, I'm not going to budge on it.
Laura Long:
I think we should keep it as is.
Laura Long:
If the intention of this HDHO to me appears that it's to give people that live
here and work here a chance to build their lives.
Laura Long:
And it was already compromised for the developers to get a bunch of extra
units.
Laura Long:
And again, I'm just going to say, it sounds like a compromise on top of a
compromise.
Laura Long:
And I think we should just leave it the way it is.
Laura Long:
And I understand you guys want to compromise with the county, but I just.
Tony Mancuso:
For the record, I think you are morally in the right on this one.
Laura Long:
Then why would you vote?
Laura Long:
I mean, I don't know.
Laura Long:
I guess I'm just like the principle.
Laura Long:
If you want to, if you are a servant of the community, you should vote on the
principles.
Aaron Lindberg:
Right.
Aaron Lindberg:
I would, I think one of my principles though is compromise.
Laura Long:
And that's what keeps us diverse.
Aaron Lindberg:
I'm agreeing with you.
Laura Long:
I mean, as long as it's on the record, like morally, that's how we all are, but
we're going to compromise because we don't, we won't, yeah.
Aaron Lindberg:
I just think having, if there was anything to have a full consensus thing, it'd
be a good message that we really on that.
Aaron Lindberg:
And that would be my only appeal.
Mary Hofhine:
And I, I feel that since the developers have already bought into this, they've
all bought into it.
Mary Hofhine:
One of them said, no, they've all purchased this.
Mary Hofhine:
Not yet.
Mary Hofhine:
And I did go to court and apparently they did win.
Mary Hofhine:
So there's a good wording there.
Mary Hofhine:
And I feel like keeping it as is, as much as I appreciate what Chrissy did.
Mary Hofhine:
I'm older, I'm wiser.
Mary Hofhine:
And I'm burned.
Jerry Klaes:
I have just one other comment too.
Jerry Klaes:
I've been operating under the assumption that this is not going to be sunset
for, that it's coming back.
Jerry Klaes:
Now that may or may not be correct.
Jerry Klaes:
And that's not the situation we have to deal with today.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I don't think you should.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah, I don't think you should do it that way.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I mean, that would original ordinance wasn't.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah, no, it wasn't designed for that.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And so I think that if that's something that wants, that's the commission wants
to happen, it would have to be written with new numbers and new dates because
our new units, because it was approved by the public with these limits.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
We can't get rid of those limits.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So, and those limits were met.
Mary Hofhine:
It can be brought in new.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I mean, even the ordinance only allowed, it was, I think, 40.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It was very close to what was vested in the sunset date happened within
throwing distance of the number and the number was specific.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And it was what made the ordinance keep the market low, keep the pool for
locals to purchase to keep that number low.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And that number was specific to the ordinance at the time.
Tony Mancuso:
So, sorry.
Tony Mancuso:
Again, this is, we're talking about an impact to no more than you said, 253
deed restricted.
Aaron Lindberg:
Is there more things that we need to address or is it ready for a motion?
Tony Mancuso:
I don't know if we're ready for a motion yet.
Tony Mancuso:
I see a little bit more highlight, but first I'd like to kind of straw poll
whether or not we like 30% of an ownership interest in deed restricted HBHO
development, or if we want to keep it as is.
Tony Mancuso:
People for keeping it as is, is OB, Long, and Mary.
Tony Mancuso:
People at 30%.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Tony Mancuso:
Hesitantly agree.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Tony Mancuso:
And for the record, I, yeah, I am with Jerry.
Tony Mancuso:
Hesitantly agree.
Tony Mancuso:
Mary has very strong points.
Tony Mancuso:
Laura has very strong points.
Tony Mancuso:
It's just what's in front of us guys.
Mary Hofhine:
And how other public hearing on that council.
Mary Hofhine:
So you might get something from the public.
Unknown:
That has happened so many times on ordinances .
Mary Hofhine:
Since the planning commission's changes don't mean anything to folks.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
Like for example, I was going to ask you, Chrissy, when you said next meeting,
but it's public.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
The next meeting is a public meeting.
Tony Mancuso:
There's one left, a little bit of highlight here.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Oh, that's left over.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
The one thing that we do that I would encourage you to just look at is the
enforcement language that was sort of changed since the last meeting.
Tony Mancuso:
Investigation and enforcement on the last page?
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
No, it's at, I didn't highlight it.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
I'm sorry.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It's at.
Tony Mancuso:
Oh, 4-7-11.
Robert O'Brien:
Maybe with three pages.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah, 4-7-11.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And it would just be the legal action section.
Tony Mancuso:
This was the one we talked about.
Tony Mancuso:
to satisfy Rarni [Schultz].
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And I mentioned at the beginning, I just want to make sure everyone, because
that is different from the last one you looked at.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So I just wanted to point it out because it's slightly different and it just
speaks to an injunctive sort of situation where we'd have to go to court.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
We couldn't just.
Tony Mancuso:
Yeah, if Rarni's happy with that, I also, in my civics mind, like that we're
asking a judge to carry out an eviction proceeding and not say they can people
on an administrative process.
Tony Mancuso:
Just in general, that's the way it should be.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Right, and the language just said not limited to.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So this is just, it just specifies that it would be a injunction.
Tony Mancuso:
That's yeah.
Tony Mancuso:
If Franny and Freddy like that, that's the only way we can.
Tony Mancuso:
Cool.
Tony Mancuso:
In that case, we're really looking at to just review seeking a motion to send a
favorable or unfavorable recommendation.
Tony Mancuso:
of the HDHO ordinance as we have edited those two edits being...where are they?
Tony Mancuso:
That the 'local area' will be the political boundary of Grand County, the
political boundary of the 84532 zip code, or is otherwise within 75 miles.
Tony Mancuso:
Then the other edit will be on that section three, the deed restrictions.
Tony Mancuso:
So up to 30% of the ownership interest in a deed-restricted HDHO development is
the way I have that language.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I have 30% of the deed-restricted units.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Not withstanding the requirements of 4.7.13, up to 30% of deed-restricted units
in an HDHO development designated under this section may be held by individuals
who did not qualify as an actively employed household provided that blah, blah,
blah, blah.
Tony Mancuso:
Not to be realist here, and I know I'm gonna be the guy who's asking a dumb
question and I hate myself sometimes.
Tony Mancuso:
The copy that I read used the text ownership interest.
Tony Mancuso:
The most recent copy that you're working on says number of units.
Tony Mancuso:
That is a patently different thing than ownership interest and an actual whole
intimate unit.
Tony Mancuso:
And so did we intentionally want to not get into the weeds without avoiding
ownership in that one?
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
That was something that I didn't know.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
That happened in the middle of the night and I don't know why it didn't get up.
Tony Mancuso:
So yeah, patently different, but we're talking about 30% of the units.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Units, complete units.
Tony Mancuso:
Cool.
Tony Mancuso:
So I will entertain a motion to send any form of recommendation to the county
commission on that ordinance as edited.
Jerry Klaes:
That we sent a favorable recommendation to the county as submitted ordinance as
noted by you.
Tony Mancuso:
Do I have a second?
Megan Schafer:
Second.
Tony Mancuso:
Adding seconds.
Tony Mancuso:
Okay, all in favor.
Tony Mancuso:
Two, one, four, three.
Tony Mancuso:
For the record, Long, OB and Mary in opposition.
Tony Mancuso:
That's the word.
Tony Mancuso:
Very good.
Tony Mancuso:
So moving on.
Tony Mancuso:
What's next?
Tony Mancuso:
Oh, geez, it is 6:25.
Tony Mancuso:
I'm so sorry.
Tony Mancuso:
I should have done a public comment a long time ago, but we can open it up
for...
Tony Mancuso:
I didn't realize you were on.
Tony Mancuso:
Oh, hi, Courtney.
Tony Mancuso:
Can you hear us?
Courney Kizer:
Yes, can y'all hear me?
Tony Mancuso:
Yeah, of course, please.
Tony Mancuso:
Floor is yours.
Tony Mancuso:
I'm sorry we took a while on that one.
Courney Kizer:
No, that's okay.
Courney Kizer:
And I have a few responses for y'all.
Courney Kizer:
I know it doesn't affect the vote that you just made, but I do want to share
these thoughts because I know the commission will be listening to this meeting.
Courney Kizer:
So the first thing that I think is really important to note is that FHA
specifically denied this deed restriction, the language in the deed restriction.
Courney Kizer:
And the reason that's important to the HDHO program is that FHA loans are some
of the most critical loans for locals because they require the lowest money
down.
Courney Kizer:
So it's the best way to get locals in-house.
Courney Kizer:
So it's still really important to us to get that FHA verbiage fixed, which I
think will be passed along to the commission.
Courney Kizer:
Also, this wouldn't be a conversation if the program was working in its current
iteration.
Courney Kizer:
We've had CFO on all of our units for a year and a half.
Courney Kizer:
We market in every possible way I can imagine.
Courney Kizer:
So if anybody hasn't heard of these units, please come take a look and please
tell everyone you know.
Courney Kizer:
Open to ideas.
Courney Kizer:
And at the end of the day, yes, we want to fill into units.
Courney Kizer:
We've turned away dozens of people who are undeniably part of our community
that haven't met the minutiae of the current code for one reason or another.
Courney Kizer:
It's been heartbreaking to turn people away over and over again.
Courney Kizer:
Several of our non-restricted units we've dropped the price on and sold to
people that I strongly believe should have met the HDHO.
Courney Kizer:
We thought it was more important to get them into our community than to simply
tell them no.
Courney Kizer:
This is not just about selling units right now.
Courney Kizer:
We also need to think about the longevity of the success of these units.
Courney Kizer:
And we need to make sure that the people that have bought them individually
have a reasonable pool of people to sell to, a reasonable pool of local
workforce.
Courney Kizer:
At the end of the day, opening up the definition of the AEH is the most
important thing from our experience.
Courney Kizer:
And again, there've just been individuals that continue to slip through the
cracks that have lived here for years, decades even.
Courney Kizer:
The ownership impetus for us comes from several local retirees that have wanted
to buy units and rent them to locals, but the code does not allow for those
retirees to own units.
Courney Kizer:
So if there's some way that the commission can figure out that we can somehow
make it to where at least locals of all different types, shapes and forms can
buy and rent to locals, then that would be a great way to meet this as well.
Courney Kizer:
But I am happy to hear that y'all passed that 30% of those restricted units
could be owned by somebody out of the community, but of course still rented to
local workforce.
Courney Kizer:
So thank you so much for your time.
Courney Kizer:
I sure appreciate it.
Tony Mancuso:
Thank you, Courtney.
Tony Mancuso:
And I appreciate those comments.
Tony Mancuso:
And sorry, you didn't get to make those earlier at six, but they are duly
recorded.
Tony Mancuso:
Thank you for your time.
Courney Kizer:
Have a nice night.
Tony Mancuso:
Cool.
Tony Mancuso:
So I think we're on future considerations.
Tony Mancuso:
Megan, as I understand, you have been working with other planning bodies.
Megan Schafer:
So, yeah.
Megan Schafer:
So Chrissy and I are gonna email, figure out a date.
Megan Schafer:
And then I'll reach out to those other entities and we'll get a date set.
Tony Mancuso:
Super.
Megan Schafer:
We got this.
Megan Schafer:
Thank you so much, guys.
Megan Schafer:
We'll keep you updated.
Tony Mancuso:
And there was like a little bit of housekeeping while we're talking future
considerations.
Tony Mancuso:
I wanted to ask you guys, your faces, hello.
Tony Mancuso:
We have just barely as a body been using a form that was meant to help Machael
sort of triage agenda items and suggestions that kind of fell by the wayside as
staffing challenges arose.
Tony Mancuso:
Would you still like us to use that form for things like Megan's scheduling a
meeting, Aaron's got updates from the housing task force or can we just shoot
you an email?
Tony Mancuso:
How are you?
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
This is your board.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
You guys should run it the way you feel is most efficient.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And I get that it's important to include staff in that, but it's your board.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
And I want you guys to all feel empowered to make sure that you're getting
whatever you want on your meeting.
Tony Mancuso:
So I guess my thing is my interests will be to not like overload your work, but
keep it organized and just make sure that when we are discussing something in a
meeting, it is duly noticed on the agenda, on civic life or whatever the
website's called.
Tony Mancuso:
So yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
It would be, I think that it should come from you though.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I will not, I would never...So if people are emailing me asking me for
something on the agenda, I would always prefer to...
Tony Mancuso:
help Megan's inbox and route it to me so I can send her one email with several
items and not several emails with one item.
Robert O'Brien:
I have a question.
Robert O'Brien:
Are we still, since it's been so long, are we still going to go through the LUC
and basically decide, you know, we're going to edit it all the way through.
Robert O'Brien:
Is that still on our agenda?
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I'm a meeting later.
Aaron Lindberg:
Okay.
Aaron Lindberg:
One comment on that.
Aaron Lindberg:
I did find that PDF a little cumbersome.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Aaron Lindberg:
Being like, I'll put all that info in there, but there was a couple of times
when I'm like, I only had my thing and I'm like, I can't do it.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Tony Mancuso:
To be entirely honest, I hate versioning the PDFs and all that crap.
Tony Mancuso:
Anyway, if you have something you want to talk about, you can just email it to
me and I'll work with Chrissy and we'll just get it up there.
Tony Mancuso:
It shouldn't be an hour.
Jerry Klaes:
So one more question about future too.
Jerry Klaes:
Yes.
Jerry Klaes:
Future land use plan.
Jerry Klaes:
We did quite a bit of work on that.
Jerry Klaes:
And then I think we are going to hire a consultant to do some next step.
Jerry Klaes:
I don't know if funding even got approved for that.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Funding was approved, yeah.
Jerry Klaes:
Is that going to wait until we have a new?
Jerry Klaes:
All right, go ahead.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yeah.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
So my understanding is that the funding that was associated with that is going
to be reallocated to the land use code.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Because I think that that is the most critical thing to get solid before we
start future planning.
Jerry Klaes:
We've done a lot of future land use plan.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
I mean, it'll be incorporated into the land use code updates.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Like the zoning map, I think is the thing that we're worried that we need to
work into the land use code and the language surrounding that.
Jerry Klaes:
Basically, what you're saying is that the land use code updates are going to be
worked in cooperation with the work we've already done.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Yes, with the future, yes.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
Like that's going to be- No, I'm not throwing it out.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
No, I'm saying like those are, because of all of that that's there, it needs to
be incorporated into the land use code.
Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine:
The land use code needs to be updated so that that is being properly done.
Tony Mancuso:
Also, take a moment to point out, particularly land use code updates and future
land use plan and particularly when we're talking about maps, let's remember
that the planning department as yet does not have a planning administrator or
director.
Tony Mancuso:
And so there are- They're already signed, but like not a permanent time
dedicated employee.
Tony Mancuso:
I am looking out for you guys, I promise.
Tony Mancuso:
But there are administrative authorities that only a full-time permanent staff
person can be doing as far as contract management goes, classification with
them, and just accept their way.
Tony Mancuso:
We got an engineer and we're back up the building, but we're not out of woods
yet.
Tony Mancuso:
We're still not, there are still like six vacancies in there.
Jerry Klaes:
Okay, so- We're still in the work.
Jerry Klaes:
We're still in the work.
Jerry Klaes:
I know it sounds ongoing.
Tony Mancuso:
Yeah, absolutely.
Tony Mancuso:
Super.
Tony Mancuso:
Well, good to end on a bit of giggles, but I would have a motion to adjourn.
Speaker 12:
I make a motion.
Tony Mancuso:
Seconded.
Speaker 12:
Ah, yeah.
Tony Mancuso:
Everybody's, let's go.
Speaker 12:
Let's go.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
It's really a grand story about- I do think it's a- I know, this is why I
thought it's important.
Commissioner Trish Hedin:
I'm sorry.
Transcript Notice: This transcript has been auto-generated then reviewed by Moab Sun News staff for clarity, but may still contain occasional errors in speaker labels or phrasing. We recommend double-checking key quotes or context against the official meeting video when accuracy is critical.
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Meeting Summary
After months of review, the Grand County Planning Commission voted 4–3 on June 9 to recommend changes to the county’s High Density Housing Overlay (HDHO) ordinance—despite ethical concerns and confusion about the policy’s reach.
The change would allow up to 50% of HDHO units in a development to be owned by individuals who do not qualify as “Actively Employed Households” (AEHs), as long as the occupants still meet local eligibility rules and use the homes as a primary residence. The update introduces flexibility for ownership—such as retirees or local landlords renting to workers—while preserving the occupancy requirement that originally defined the HDHO program.
Commissioners were caught between concerns from developers and lenders—who said the ordinance limited sellers’ options and left housing units unsold—and concerns that changing the local homeownership requirement would undermine the ordinance’s original intent: to improve housing access for local workers.
The commission also discussed enforcement revisions made in response to feedback from mortgage lenders. According to Acting Planning Director Cristin Hofhine, earlier versions of the HDHO included language that allowed the county to unilaterally revoke building permits or Certificates of Occupancy if an owner violated deed restrictions.
That clause had raised red flags with lenders, some of whom reported they could not issue loans for HDHO units under those terms. In the revised ordinance, enforcement has been reframed to require formal legal action—such as an injunction—rather than immediate administrative revocation, with the intent of preserving both accountability and lendability.
The meeting also included a tense moment when Grand County Commissioner Brian Martinez began commenting on the discussion from the audience. Commissioner Trish Hedin, who serves as the County Commission’s liaison to the Planning Commission, pushed back, saying that County Commissioners should avoid influencing Planning Commission deliberations, since they’ll ultimately vote on the recommendation in a formal setting.
Chair Tony Mancuso addressed both Martinez and Hedin directly: “With all the depth and respect in my heart, not going to be letting anybody campaign. I need to just keep this one focused.”
During the meeting, Acting Planning Director Cristina Hofhine clarified that the revised ordinance would only apply to under 300 units in already-approved and vested HDHO projects, since the program itself has expired. Any attempt to resurrect the HDHO would require a new ordinance and public approval process.
That realization shifted the tone of the discussion. Mancuso, who had spent much of the meeting critical of the proposed changes, ultimately voted in favor.
“How much time have we spent talking about 80 to 120 housing units that could be bought by Californians?” he said.
Mancuso explained that while he found aspects of the policy troubling, it was more important to resolve the issue and move the item forward—particularly given its limited application. Commissioner Aaron Lindberg agreed, saying he didn’t love the change but could support it “in the spirit of compromise.”
Commissioners Jerry Klaes and Megan Schafer also voted in favor, forming the 4–3 majority. But the vote is advisory, not binding—the final decision rests with the Grand County Commission.
The three commissioners who voted against—Laura Long, Mary Hofhine, and Robert O’Brien—emphasized that their opposition was grounded in principle.
Long said she couldn’t join colleagues in support of a policy she didn’t believe in.
“If you are a servant of the community,” she said, “you should vote on the principles.”
“The intention of the HDHO, to me, appears that it’s to give people that live here and work here a chance to build their lives, and it was already compromised for developers to get a bunch of extra units,” she said. “I understand you guys want to compromise with the county, but I just can’t.”
“[The developers] all bought into this,” said Commissioner Mary Hofhine, who added that she thought the original ordinance was clear. “I feel like keeping it as is.”
“It should be recorded that…there was debate about this number,” said Robert O’Brien, commenting on the 50% of homes open to outside ownership. “and the issue really was ownership for locals.”
Mancuso formally noted their opposition “for the record.”
The ordinance will now proceed to the Grand County Commission for final consideration.
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